48 replies to this topic

[alanh]

MLXXX,
I have already provided evidence that their advertising rates which provides finance for the company are 9 years old.

http://www.echonews..../14/evening/59/ shows no programs for LINC TV.

I have contacted the sources of information many times prior to posting.

If you are trying to prove me wrong then prove it.

AlanH

[Malich]

Alan, LINC was up and running until at least mid-2006, according to their submission to the government's Inquiry into Community Broadcasting. There's also less-strong evidence that they were broadcasting on analogue 68 until at ~ 2007/8. That suggests you shouldn't put too much weight on the fact the rate card on their website was last updated in 2003.

Nobody's trying to prove you wrong - people are wondering if they're still on-air, which as nbound alludes to should be the case if they've managed to hang onto their analogue CTV licence.

[nbound]

OK, found more info to back me up on my claim, as some of you are aware the Perth analog C31 service's license was revoked for just this reason after it ceased broadcasting. See link:
http://www.acma.gov....RD/pc=PC_311401

ACMA has never made an enforcement action against LINC:
http://www.acma.gov....RD/pc=PC_310289

MLXXX: I'd personally prefer to find a reputable thirdparty that everyone can access. Therefore the matter will be unambiguous and rely on noones word. I did try calling the contact number posted on the site though.

I did find different contact details on ACMAs page:
Lismore Ch 68
LINC TV Inc.
Tel: (02) 6622 0144
Website: www.linctv.org.au
Email: linctv@nrg.com.au

I cant call during business hours but maybe someone else can if they want to hear it from the horses mouth (or prove me wrong) -  Though I do think the information from ACMA Ive posted above should be enough to put this to rest.

Edited by nbound, 14 June 2012 - 06:54 PM.

[GoForMoe]

Doing some Googling on the PO Box provided, eventually leads you to the address of 380 Ewingsdale Rd Byron Bay NSW 2481, and a look on Google Street View gives you the SAE Institute Byron Bay, which is a film and media production school. So perhaps, if the licence is used in any form, it is supported by being used as part of training courses.

The submission mentioned by Malich makes note of the potential for this to occur, so perhaps this did happen in the subsequent period.

Perhaps the licence is just being kept alive to be able to do a wider deployment in the future when the spectrum issues for covering Byron Bay mentioned are resolved post switchoff.

[MLXXX]

alanh, on 14 June 2012 - 05:50 PM, said:

MLXXX,
I have contacted the sources of information many times prior to posting.

The ACMA?  The contact number appearing on the LINC TV website?  Who are "the sources"?

I don't think it conclusive that the programs are not listed in a local newspaper.  The submission Malich links to at  #27 suggests a small scale, low budget, operation.

[nbound]

GoForMoe, on 14 June 2012 - 07:34 PM, said:

Doing some Googling on the PO Box provided, eventually leads you to the address of 380 Ewingsdale Rd Byron Bay NSW 2481, and a look on Google Street View gives you the SAE Institute Byron Bay, which is a film and media production school. So perhaps, if the licence is used in any form, it is supported by being used as part of training courses.

The submission mentioned by Malich makes note of the potential for this to occur, so perhaps this did happen in the subsequent period.

Perhaps the licence is just being kept alive to be able to do a wider deployment in the future when the spectrum issues for covering Byron Bay mentioned are resolved post switchoff.

The licensee is required to provide a service to the community, you cant just put it on the bench so to speak.

[MLXXX]

I spoke today with "Shane". It's a very sad story. Capital city community broadcasters have been supported financially by Government but LINC TV, a regional community broadcaster, discovered a couple of months ago that there was no spectrum allocation even if LINC were prepared to transition to digital. In view of this lack of future, the "on and off" analogue broadcasting, that had been occurring, ceased "a couple of months ago".

I commiserated. It appears there is no immediate prospect of LINC TV being resurrected.

[Malich]

That is pretty sad. In many ways, the region would be the ideal place to have a showcase community / small regional broadcaster - either Casino / Lismore or Lismore / Ballina would be technically feasible, depending on transmitter location, and not likely to step on too many commercial toes. Unfortunately, they'd obviously also need government concessions, if not outright support - the revenue base, especially with the additional community broadcaster limitations on advertising, is just too small to support them.

Edited by Malich, 15 June 2012 - 02:07 PM.

[GoForMoe]

MLXXX, on 15 June 2012 - 01:18 PM, said:

I spoke today with "Shane". It's a very sad story. Capital city community broadcasters have been supported financially by Government but LINC TV, a regional community broadcaster, discovered a couple of months ago that there was no spectrum allocation even if LINC were prepared to transition to digital. In view of this lack of future, the "on and off" analogue broadcasting, that had been occurring, ceased "a couple of months ago".

I commiserated. It appears there is no immediate prospect of LINC TV being resurrected.

That is extremely disappointing and says a lot about how the future of community TV is being mismanaged. But at this stage, even the metro community TV channels only have certainty through to 31 December 2013 - because they too have not been allocated any post-restack spectrum at this point.

The futures offered seem to be squeezing out community broadcasters. Being bundled in with SBS would gradually see them creeping into being just another 'public' broadcaster, increasing the networking of 'community' content to save SBS money in organising the separate windows of programming and losing the local distinguishing identity. Or otherwise, being bundled in with the uncertainty of a 6th multiplex - there's only a year for all the structural stuff to be in place between the decision in early 2013 on the use of the 6th multiplex, to getting a service ready post-restack. 6 monthly renewals of a community licence in limbo while an outside group get ready to make community TV just something carried against their will? Or even worse, being switched to DVB-T2 in order to allow more services on it, alienating 95% of their viewers in the process.

Sure 'Fair Go Kev' might have worked in getting them on digital, the current Government might be treating the sector slightly better than Howard did - but 5 years on they are all still in limbo.

It'd be great to hear more about LINC's story if possible and I think it serves a big warning to the other community broadcasters that they could be thrown under a bus at any point. Especially 44 Adelaide and West TV who are on temporary licences.

[nbound]

If they are bundled in with SBS for example, that doesnt mean they would necessarilly be under SBS control. They can just share the multiplex with them (like all the DAB+ broadcasters do with each other). Of course after NITV's addition to the mux, there wont be any room unless SBS remove SBS1 or SBS HD (May as well only have one as they are simulcasting anyway). SBS cant mess around with that until >2013 thanks to capitals still on analog primary channel and HD quotas, so expect a big mess in 2014 as far as the community stations are concerned. Hopefully they survive, but if they are dropped to allow another commercial station, or other content on the 6th multiplex. I probably wont shed a tear, I dont live in a capital.

[alanh]

Things are not as black as some suggest.

I agree that HD and SD are a waste, however the current SBS network needs SD SBS1 to feed their remaining analog transmitters.

With the exception of very small screens, SD only TVs and SD only STBs have disappeared from the shops in the couple of years. HD STBs are inexpensive and all Household Assistance Scheme pensioner installations all receive HD Signals. So at the final analog switchoff there will be no need for simulcasting in HD and SD. As you would observe SBS is ithe only network using an HD/SD simulcast except for special events.


If you compare the effective radiated power of region coverage, the following areas have the same radiated power for SBS = ABC = each commercial.
NE Tasmania (Mt Barrow), South Western Slopes/Eastern Riverina (Mt Ulandra), Central Tablelands (Mt Canobolas), SW Central Victoria (Lookout Hill), Darling Downs (Mt Mowbullan), Hunter Valley (Mt Sugarloaf), Rockhampton (Mt Hopeful), Latrobe Valley (Mt Tassie), Murray Valley (Goshen), Mackay (Mt Blackwood),Central Agricultural WA (Mawson), Goulburn Valley (Mt Major), Mid North Coast NSW (Mt Moombil), Illawarra (Knights Hill), Riverland (Loxton),  Spencer Gulf North (The Bluff). These sites transmit more power than the metropolitan SBS transmitters

The following sites are the same radiated power as metropolitan SBS sites.
Sunraysia (Yatpool), Richmond/Tweed (Mt Nardi), SE SA (Mt Burr), Townsville (Mt Stuart)

Only 5 of the above sites still have on-air analog TV transmitters. It should be remembered that there are a large number of low powered SBS satellite receiver/terrestrial transmitters.

All of the above transmitter sites are exclusively UHF. The stumbling block is there is 361 transmitters which would have to modify the settings of each transmitter modulator. This will then allow more data to be transmitted.

The digital restack will mean that SBS in the mainland capital cities will move to channel 7. So they can change the modulation to the same as the commercials/ABC and increase their data rate to 23 MBit/s matching the commercials. At that time SBS could transmit SBSHD (with SBS1 program), NITV and Community TV. It will mean that at each transmitter site where a community broadcaster operates a demultiplexer and a multiplexer will be required to insert that cities' community broadcast data stream.

Another possibility is that NITV is a new broadcaster to all but satellite retransmitters in remote aboriginal commuinity. So a new program could be MPEG4 compressed. This will make the new program occupies 30 - 50 % less data bandwidth. There are many MPEG-4 capable receivers in use at the moment including all HAS Set top boxes.

The logical thing to let is to let the transmitter licences run out at the analog switchoff. Prior to or at the switchoff, add community TV to the SBS multiplex. Then the government does not have to buy five channel 10 transmitters for community TV.

For country community TV, the cost of transmission could be minimised by using the local SBS digital TV transmitter. In the LINC case if this were to occur there transmissions would be viewable thoughout  the Richmond /Tweed Valley instead of just Lismore.

The sixth and last RF channel avaliable nationally should not be used in a few locations only but nationally!

There are options for Community TV depending on the political will.

AlanH

[GoForMoe]

alanh, on 15 June 2012 - 10:13 PM, said:

Another possibility is that NITV is a new broadcaster to all but satellite retransmitters in remote aboriginal commuinity. So a new program could be MPEG4 compressed. This will make the new program occupies 30 - 50 % less data bandwidth. There are many MPEG-4 capable receivers in use at the moment including all HAS Set top boxes.

Making SBS HD MPEG-4 would be a far more valuable bandwidth saving measure, compared to the relatively modest gains at SD level. When TV4ME went from MPEG4 to MPEG2 on Seven Melbourne, there was only a 1Mbps increase in data rate - sure that is a 60% increase over what it used in MPEG-4, but only a 4% increase in total multiplex usage.

Quote

The logical thing to let is to let the transmitter licences run out at the analog switchoff. Prior to or at the switchoff, add community TV to the SBS multiplex. Then the government does not have to buy five channel 10 transmitters for community TV.

It might be one logical way, but it comes with great issues for the future of community TV's independence. NITV is going to have significant loss in indigenous control as a result of becoming part of SBS, over time I'd expect the same would occur with Community TV.

The only solution would be to move to a service licensing arrangement, make SBS the multiplex operator, but only licence them to have 19Mbps of a 23Mbps multiplex, and directly assign spectrum for a single SDTV service to the existing community licencees - and continue existing FEC/GI arrangments on the other SBS services. Similar regulatory arrangements would be needed for the sixth multiplex, in a similar way to digital radio.

Quote

For country community TV, the cost of transmission could be minimised by using the local SBS digital TV transmitter. In the LINC case if this were to occur there transmissions would be viewable thoughout  the Richmond /Tweed Valley instead of just Lismore.

The problem being that SBS are set up to 12 ad regions ^{[http://mumbrella.com...s-markets-85299]} meaning that 'community' channels would need to either follow those market boundaries, or SBS would have to add significant playout infrastructure. That said, as the markets do split for each capital city, that would be sufficient for the current community television services.

Quote

The sixth and last RF channel avaliable nationally should not be used in a few locations only but nationally!

Should be, but I would suggest that the cost of making it available nationally would be prohibitively expensive for the multiplex operator, or the cost of setting up the transmission network would be a significant diminishing factor on the value of the licences/spectrum. Plus, under current laws, making it available nationally would breach the 75% reach rule for commercial broadcasters.

Quote

There are options for Community TV depending on the political will.

LINC's experience shows how low that will is.

[DrP]

Further breaking down SBS' transmission zones is so far beyond the limits of SBS' budget as to make it safe to say it will never happen.

[alanh]

Go for moe,
I agree that more data is saved if MPEG-4 were applied to an HD channel and even more than that will occur if all the program data was MPEG-4 compressed, however there are some viewers who cannot decompress MPEG-4 and would loose reception. NITV is new to nearly all terrestrial viewers so no one will loose anything, This makes it more politically palletable.

Transmitter Licences
MGV32 http://web.acma.gov....ENCE_NO=1922136

Quote

Special Conditions
1. The transmitter operating under this licence may be used only to provide a transmission in standard definition digital mode.
2. The licensee must not transmit more than one standard definition program stream.
3. The licensee must not permit any person to use any excess multiplex capacity.     

SBS29 Melbourne http://web.acma.gov....ENCE_NO=1156343

With the political will, the ACMA can put special conditions on the new replacement licence that;

1. The transmitter operating under this licence must provide ##.# Mbit/s to NITV and ##.# Mbit/s to the ACMA approved community broadcaster for the Melbourne Licence area.
2. A multiplexer input must be provided by the licencee at the transmitter site for the insertion of these signals.

The only cost to SBS is the cost of a demultiplexer for the existing transmitter input signal and a multiplexer to add the community broadcaster signal. This option is tiny compared to buying an additional transmitter. The government pays for the SBS and susidises NITV and community TV.

SBS contracts for transmitter services.

The funding and control of SBS, NITV and community TV is currently separate and there is no reason why this should not continue.

All SBS metropolitan SBS licences end in December this year. As an example SBS34 Bunbury which is its allocated channel after the digital restack has its licence expiry in June 2014.

This shows that the options are open for a change in transmitter licence conditions on metropolitan SBS licences.
The SBS signal is still distributed as it is now so they are producing the feeding for their 12 regions at their playout centre and this proposal will not affect this.

As far as the 6th channel goes, I should be reserved for future use nationally. There is no need to use it for community TV in 5 sites which will limit the use of the 6th channel in the future. I am not suggesting it be available to any existing broadcaster.

If SBS transmitters are used for Community TV its a lot cheaper to add a LINC signal the SBS40 a 200 kWerp transmitter on Mt Nardi. The current LINC analog licence is 6 kW directional. The equivalent digital power is 1.5 kW directional. LINC TV will need to provide a signal from their studios to the Mt Nardi transmitter site.

The cost to SBS of this type of breakup is insignificant because the additional cost of providing the demultiplexer/multiplexer could be on charged to the community TV operator.

Using the above model community TV could be made available at any location who can fund the studio and production costs.

AlanH

[DrP]

If only it were as simple as demultiplexing and remultiplexing.  Unfortunately it is not.  I'm sure the industry types here would be well aware of the issues.  People that trivialise the operation in this way really must have a fairly shallow understanding of the underlying systems.

Edited by DrP, 16 June 2012 - 07:00 PM.

[alanh]

DrP
It is more likely that SBS does not want to loose any of its data bandwidth. Particularly now when they don't have enough.


In addition nothing has to happen until the analog switchoff until the end of next year when these metropolitan sites for SBS will go to channel 7
Alanh

Edited by alanh, 17 June 2012 - 10:57 AM.

[DrP]

alanh, on 17 June 2012 - 10:54 AM, said:

It is more likely that SBS does not want to loose any of its data bandwidth. Particularly now when they don't have enough.

Really alanh?  I recall someone else on this forum telling you something very similar.  Would you take a guess at who that might be?

None-the-less, adding a locally delivered community broadcaster to SBS' transmission 'at the transmitter' is far more complex than 'demuxing and remuxing' suggests.  Even brief consideration shows there are quite a few issues.

[:)]

sounds like screw up.

the analog switch off of ch31 here in melb wasnt missed. thank goodness we got an equivalent soon on digital

[alanh]

DrP,
Any analysis of your posts say any change is not possible, I have yet to see you propose any improvement. You do not back up your statements

Quote

None-the-less, adding a locally delivered community broadcaster to SBS' transmission 'at the transmitter' is far more complex than 'demuxing and remuxing' suggests. Even brief consideration shows there are quite a few issues.

SBS management like any broadcaster would always want to retain as much data rate as possible so that they can add more programs in the future.

"Even brief consideration shows there are quite a few issues"  If you make such statements what are they? The posts above are suggesting that the programming of NITV and Community broadcasting is independent of SBS.

Just more smear

AlanH

ipb.global.registerReputation( 'rep_post_1813151', { domLikeStripId: 'like_post_1813151', app: 'forums', type: 'pid', typeid: '1813151' }, parseInt('0') );

[DrP]

No alanh, an analysis of my posts shows that I think most of your posts are rubbish... and they are.  If you were even one quarter as informed as you claim you are you would be able to produce a comprehensive list of the issues involved in injecting a locally provided service rather than glibbly stating that its 'simply a case of muxing and demuxing'

From my past posts it's pretty clear that I have a good grasp of the principles that are generally discussed on this forum*, so here's my challenge to you:  List out some of the issues that would be involved in what you propose.


*for example, I do not run around the forum proclaiming that SBS is going to change its transmission modulation to 64QAM

[Malich]

I'd actually written a detailed comment describing some of the problems last night, but couldn't post due to the forum going awol. This is the short version:

Technically, not that hard. Add-drop muxes (ADMs) for DVB are available & could be placed in the feed to the transmitter, so you wouldn't even need to demux/remux; just drop 1 'channel' (A/V streams + the associated wrapping) and add your local CTV channel.

At a network level, it's more complicated. For one, the 'channel' you drop would have to be fixed-bitrate - either a null/blank channel (non-CTV sites get no additional channels), or a non-critical national channel that could be replaced by the local CTV channel. For another, broadcast sites with a CTV insert couldn't participate in a SFN with either the national broadcaster or adjacent regional broadcasters, as the to-air modulation will be totally different between sites. I can think of a few more similar issues off the top of my head.

At a commercial and political level, it's difficult because of the Australian arrangement of 'each broadcaster is responsible for their transmitter' (BA etc. notwithstanding). It'd be simpler if we'd adopted a UK-like system where the transmission network is (ams-length) independent of the broadcasters - but we didn't.

Feel free to think through and argue all the different ramifications of those and other issues...

[DrP]

I'd have preferred to see if alanh could come up with some of the issues on his own rather than an already demonstrated informed person listing just a few.  Opportunity is lost now though.

[M'bozo]

Feel free to think through and argue all the different ramifications of those and other issues...

At the end of the day, when the ABC & SBS are sold off, it will become a commercial decision for the new owners.

[Malich]

Sorry DrP - like I said I'd tried to post it last night, and this time it just got crossed up with your challenge.

(But, y'know, challenging alan is a bit like digging a hole in water...)

Still, like I said there's at least 2 other real issues I haven't mentioned.