94 replies to this topic

[DrP]

IMO contacting SBS can't hurt.  It can be difficult to convince ABC and SBS of issues so the more reports the better, even if SBS' response is "we've not heard of that happening on any other TV".

[POP23]

Well DrP, contacting SBS didn't hurt....but also did not help me after contacting them thrice about the same problem discussed above.

(2nd email)

Hello SBS

I contacted SBS  (technical@sbs.com.au) describing problems I experienced with one of my DTV receivers following the SBS HD change from 720p to 1080i on 5/6/2012. I received a phone call from a man at SBS advising that this form of reception problem had been reported from a number of SBS HD viewers since the HD upgrade and that the problem  was generally limited to “the less expensive” range of receivers. That call left me with the feeling that SBS had changed the HD resolution to a format and that was that.

I have now raised this reception problem and SBS response with Soniq (Quaitus) and although my TV is out of warranty they are interested in the outcome to this problem. My TV extended warranty provider (Lumley) is also interested as it will impact on how they address potential SBS HD problems reported to them.  

The verbal response that I got from SBS is insufficient for either Quaitus or Lumley to progress any further, and as all other DTV HD 1080i channels are received without problems, they have both advised me that my reception  problem ( and other SBS viewers per the SBS phone call ) should be resolved by SBS as soon as possible.

I would like to now escalate this problem to a complaint about SBS HD reception, following SBS change from 720p to 1080i.  

I have included the original email to technical@sbs.com.au for your information.

I would like the SBS response by email or in writing so that Soniq and Lumley can be informed of the outcome.

Regards,

(Initial email to technical@sbs.com.au)

   Hi

I live at Ringwood postcode 3135. Tonight @ ~6pm we turned over to SBS HD CH30 and noticed TV display problems on this channel, sound OK

Best I can describe it as a “normal” screen display of programme material in the background with a green tinge to the picture. Overlaid over the display in the bottom half are  vertical lines maybe~ 150 across the screen. Top half of the screen has a 50% boxing of lines etc.

Both top and bottom problems flash at faster than 1 Hz frequency with some vivid colours.

Is TV centric? as I exchanged  with good TV’s and tried it on other antenna on the workshop, and no other equipment is doing what this TV is doing.

I tried a factory reset and retune of channels on the TV  without any change.

The TV is a Soniq about 2 years old and I will be heading off the Quatius as I believe its a TV problem unless something in the digital data stream is causing it.

Have you seen anything this unusual before?

Regards,

Now it does not end there. After the 2nd email to SBS and not hearing back from them I rang SBS and found my way to Alan Harrington. He was quite aware of the problems experienced and reported to them by (some) viewers across Australia, post the SBS HD upgrade. Where was my  emailed complaint sitting in the SBS response process I asked? Don't know said Alan after asking around the SBS Office, but send me the email and I'll make sure it gets to the right place.

10 days after the email to Alan Harrington, nothing from SBS.

What little info the SBS tech. gave in the phone call to me was that AWA DTV's seemed to feature worst and my Soniq was a first for that brand.

Sorry for the length of the post, but it probably answers most questions you might ask.

DonP  

[alanh]

POP,
The data stream attached to all digital signals contain amongst other things the following independent control signals
Horizontal size includes 720, 1280, 1920
Vertical size eg 480, 576, 720 and 1080
Progressive sequence 1 or 0
Aspect ratio 16:9

Australian transmission standard and the receiver standard only specify the maximum values of the above so they are allowed to transmit 1280 x 1080 x25i

These signals are used to control the addressing in the RAM picture store used by the display.

Since the TV is an HD it will have to downscale the 1080i down to write only 720 lines in the RAM.

So the problem is the manufacturers.

If you have no joy, then I would buy an HD STB so that it will convert the signal to 1920 x 1080i

AlanH

[DrP]

POP23, on 06 July 2012 - 10:19 PM, said:

Now it does not end there. After the 2nd email to SBS and not hearing back from them I rang SBS and found my way to Alan Harrington. He was quite aware of the problems experienced and reported to them by (some) viewers across Australia, post the SBS HD upgrade. Where was my  emailed complaint sitting in the SBS response process I asked? Don't know said Alan after asking around the SBS Office, but send me the email and I'll make sure it gets to the right place.

I did wonder how many would be affected by the non-standard resolution even though any MPEG-2 decoder should handle the situation with grace, firmware silliness abounds.  This really only goes to show what happens when you wander off into the wilderness of non-standard configurations.  ABC saw it, NINE (?) saw it [fiddling with 'undefined' bits in the streams causing problems with UK firmware.. that made use of those undefined bits - a double whammy].

At least you know SBS is aware of the issue and may decide to flip the picture format... may.

[davmel]

DrP, on 07 July 2012 - 07:52 AM, said:

I did wonder how many would be affected by the non-standard resolution

Non-standard????? 1280x1080i is just as much of an accepted broadcast resolution as 1440x1080i and has been used extensively in overseas markets for a decade.

Ever since digital TV broadcasting began the standard has allowed not only the full resolution variant but also set horizontal ratios of the full horizontal resolution (i.e. 1/2, 2/3, 3/4, 1/1)
So for PAL derived SD you can have:

720 x 576i (full D1 res)
544 x 576i (3/4 D1 res)
480 x 576i (2/3 D1 res)
360 x 576i (1/2 D1 res)

For NTSC derived SD you can have:

720 x 480i (full D1 res)
544 x 480i (3/4 D1 res)
480 x 480i (2/3 D1 res)
360 x 480i (1/2 D1 res)

For 1080i/p HD you can have:

1920 x 1080i/p (full 1080HD res)
1440 x 1080i/p (3/4 1080HD res)
1280 x 1080i/p (2/3 1080HD res)
960 x 1080i/p (1/2 1080HD res)

For 720p HD you can have:

1280 x 720p (full 720HD res)
960 x 720p (3/4 720HD res)
640 x 720p (1/2 720HD res)

All of the above are standard digital broadcast resolutions. If the stupid programmers of firmware for a particular device don't support every single one of them then their device shouldn't even be considered as DVB compliant, let alone marketed as such!
The old adage that you get what you paid for applies here as well. If the programmers cut corners in development and testing to save money then that will make a cheaper product.

An example of a non-standard resolution would be 1328x1080i.

[DrP]

I don't particularly give a toss about what is supported overseas davmel.  1280 is not part of the Australian specs.  A manufacturer targetting Australia is not likely to test compliance to something that is not specified, especially given the poor compliance to what is actually is specified.  Whilst you clearly consider such to be cutting corners, a reasonable person would not.

As for compliance I've made my viewpoints on the general array of crap that has been sold into the Australian marketplace quite apparent in other threads.

Edited by DrP, 07 July 2012 - 05:37 PM.

[BigBadBaz]

davmel, on 07 July 2012 - 08:10 AM, said:

All of the above are standard digital broadcast resolutions. If the stupid programmers of firmware for a particular device don't support every single one of them then their device shouldn't even be considered as DVB compliant, let alone marketed as such!
The old adage that you get what you paid for applies here as well. If the programmers cut corners in development and testing to save money then that will make a cheaper product.

An example of a non-standard resolution would be 1328x1080i.

Have heard back from Dick Smith who say they are trying to fix by firmware update, but the first update failed and they are triying again, should get back to me within 10-14 days.

Sure, this is a cheaper set, but it fitted the requirments of the situation (right size for bedroom wall, inbuilt DVD) and it worked until SBS made changes to their transmission.  I think DSE have conceeded that the fault is theirs and are trying to rectify it, other manufacturers of more costly devices are not always that accomodating.

To be totally honest I can live with SBS in SD on this set, as I pointed out earlier other devices in the house are all ok, but would like it fixed if possible.

I'll let others argue over standard and non standard transmission specs, i don't really care.

[DrP]

Hopefully the problem is resolved for you, BigBadBaz.  A certain large name brand still hasn't resolved interlacing handling problems.

[ckent]

Well it should all be fixed as of this week, rightt?

SBS HD is now on similar parameters and bitrate to GEM, 7mate, ONE.

[:)]

thanks for the heads up

[alanh]

CKent and ,
SBS HD is 1280 x 1080 x 25i where as the commercials are 1440 x 1080 x 25i and HD can also be 1920 x 1080i

AlanH

[GoForMoe]

What you must have meant to say, with your frequent emphasis on accuracy is that,

alanh, on 02 December 2012 - 12:56 AM, said:

SBS HD was 1280 x 1080 x 25i however is now at 1440 x 1080 x 25i as the commercials are

You wouldn't be posting information you hadn't checked would you?

[MLXXX]

ckent, on 01 December 2012 - 03:01 PM, said:

Well it should all be fixed as of this week, rightt?

SBS HD is now on similar parameters and bitrate to GEM, 7mate, ONE.

Thanks for mentioning this.

[DrP]

There really, IMO, only two things possible when it comes to SBS flipping SBS HD back to 1440.

i) configuration error - which will be proved if SBS HD reverts to 1280 in the near future
ii) sufficient numbers of people complained to SBS that their receivers do not display correctly when 1280 was the format.

[MLXXX]

DrP, on 02 December 2012 - 12:18 PM, said:

i) configuration error - which will be proved if SBS HD reverts to 1280 in the near future

No reversion yet. Still at 1440x1080 here in Brisbane (as of a few minutes ago).

[GoForMoe]

I think the reasoning is that the trade off in the issues a few viewers were facing wasn't worth the perhaps minimal increase in picture quality by using the slightly lower horizontal resolution. More people are going to notice a channel not working than would notice the quality difference by the change - even if a very high proportion of viewers might not be impacted.

I'd suggest this is a general trend - that while a technologically superior solution might be the broadcaster's preferred choice, the realities of the lack of enforced standards with receivers mean they need to take a lowest common denominator approach. Things like TV4ME stopping using MPEG-4, ABC News 24 stopping using 960x720, SBS HD stopping using 1280x1080, the shared LCN and name for ABC2 and ABC 4 Kids, the lack of true 'switching off' of ABC2/3, etc. All of these things would probably have been the best outcome in terms of making more bandwidth available and better picture quality - but because a few viewers would have issues we're stuck with these things.

Freeview could have been a good solution, but the cost of compliance and it being used to shoehorn anti-user features like blocking commercial skipping meant that the standardisation that could have resulted in failed.

[:)]

definitely not seen this on any broadcaster in all years of digital TV but SBS has actually cut off its own logo which is only half visible now in the top left corner off the screen. no idea if this is due to some screwy resolution theyre using or what but yeah watching Luke Nguyens greater mekong 2 on sbs one tonight it was still cut in half ! *blink*

also noticed it was broadcast at what would be lower than 576i with plenty of artifacts being all blocky bit rate starved noisy and pixelated.

later half way through the next program raymond blanc looks like the logo dropped down to the bottom right 4:3 border.... still lower quality than 576i...blocky pixelated and hardly 1080i HD !

I suppose coming upto school holidays time so they probably got the schoolies at the wheel so anything goes I guess hehe

[mwd]

You must be getting too much overscan there, no problem here logo shows in full. I agree the programme looks to be only SD though.
I recorded it on my Magic PVR love asian cooking pity cannot get all the different vegs and spices here.

I feel a tom yum kung coming on for tomorrow night.

Edited by mwd, 06 December 2012 - 11:02 PM.

[miata]

mwd, on 06 December 2012 - 10:59 PM, said:

You must be getting too much overscan there, no problem here logo shows in full. I agree the programme looks to be only SD though.
I recorded it on my Magic PVR love asian cooking pity cannot get all the different vegs and spices here.

I feel a tom yum kung coming on for tomorrow night.

Same here, I recorded both on the Toppy. On both programs, the SBSONE logo is top left, about 5cm from the edge. The HD logo was bottom right about 15cm or more from the edge. Picture quality looked fine on both, certainly not 1920 x 1080 but considerably better than SD. I think it's the first time I've actually seen the HD logo on an SBS program but I'm usually too busy watching what Luke does, to notice.

Edited by miata, 07 December 2012 - 07:03 AM.

[BigBadBaz]

ckent, on 01 December 2012 - 03:01 PM, said:

Well it should all be fixed as of this week, rightt?

SBS HD is now on similar parameters and bitrate to GEM, 7mate, ONE.

Yep it's been good for a few months now,sorry I don't frequent this forum as much as I used to.