227 replies to this topic

[alanh]

DrP,
Typical irrelevant post.
The last 3-D tests were all in MPEG-4. All 3-D TVs can receive MPEG-4. So for 3-D MPEG-4 is a minimum.
The last 3-D trials reduced the resolution to 960 x 540 using MPEG-4 compression. Do you wish the picture quality to be reduced to less than SD quality to use MPEG-2?
Frame compatible S3-D are unwatchable by 2-D viewers so why not use MPEG-4 for the S3-D signals. At least it would allow Nine to transmit the Olympic Open and closing ceremonies on their digital channel along with an SD MPEG-2 version for those without 3-D TV.

I recently saw an MPEG-4 capable STB in a chain store for $27.

AlanH

[nbound]

alanh, on 16 April 2012 - 05:51 PM, said:

Do you wish the picture quality to be reduced to less than SD quality to use MPEG-2?

He was refering to across the board use, for 3D theres little reason not to use MPEG-4 at this stage for 3DTV. Across the board use is still some time away it would seem.

alanh, on 16 April 2012 - 05:51 PM, said:

Frame compatible S3-D are unwatchable by 2-D viewers.

Not strictly true, during the 3D Trials I was able to decode the 3D channel on my 2D PVR (Homecast HT8000), and watch it on the TV. I could see the two separate images side-by-side on the screen.

(And by going cross-eyed and combining the images I could get the 3D effect - too bad the aspect ratio was out though )

Edited by nbound, 16 April 2012 - 06:53 PM.

[CWulf]

alanh, on 16 April 2012 - 05:51 PM, said:

DrP,
Typical irrelevant post....

Talk about pot calling the kettle black, although if anyone knows what irrelevant posts look like ...

[alanh]

nbound,
I doubt that any viewers want to watch a whole program of a pair of squashed pictures. They want pictures which fill the screen.
All you are proving is that the receiver you used can decompress MPEG-4 signals. Just like the $27 HD MPEG-4 STB I saw in a chain store.

All of the 100,000 STBs supplied to full pensioners for the digital conversion are all MPEG-4 capable. This number is going to drastically increase when the digital switchoff occurs in Brisbane & Perth installation program starts at the start of next year and for Sydney, Melbourne & Adelaide at the middle of next year.

All 3-D TVs can decompress MPEG-4, all Freeview approved products, all PVRs for at least 3 years....

AlanH

[MLXXX]

This does seem to be going in the direction of yet another MPEG-4 thread...

PART 1

alanh, on 16 April 2012 - 05:51 PM, said:

I recently saw an MPEG-4 capable STB in a chain store for $27.

This thread is primarily about Nine broadcasting side-by-side 3D in July and August this year to people with 3D capable TVs. However if there is to be discussion at this point in this thread on the subject of non-3D programs being broadcast with MPEG-4 for people with 2D digital TV sets that are not MPEG4 capable:-

The consumer would acquire the cheap set top box, and then perhaps an HDMI cable for another $27 or so, and find a spare input for their TV that was not being used for other devices (e.g. Blu-ray player, PVR).

The concerns in 2012 would probably not be so much cost, as the following:

1. Does the consumer have the knowledge, confidence and motivation to acquire and install an outboard tuner ("set top box") and appropriate connecting cable(s)?

2. Is the consumer prepared to put up with the inconvenience of a separate remote control to operate the STB?

3. Does the consumer use a TV program recording device that is non-MPEG4 capable and that relies on its own built-in tuner?

__________

PART 2  [In for a penny, in for a pound.]

And just to extend the logic, and I daresay warm the cockles of the heart of anyone very progressively inclined, the Federal government could theoretically announce that in 6 months' time all digital TV transmissions in Australia using DVB-T shall cease and be replaced by DVB-T2 with MPEG-4 AVC,  and accordingly all Australians wishing to continue to watch Free to air TV who don't have DVB-T2 capable set top boxes or TVs may simply purchase a DVB-T2 set top box.  Problem solved!

As for the broadcasters, they would simply upgrade to DVB-T2 modulators and MPEG-4 encoders and statistical multiplexers, in order to comply with the new conditions of their broadcasting licences.

With all that additional bitrate available, the ABC could share a single RF allocation with SBS, 7 and 9 could share with each other, and 10 and community broadcasters could share.  One 7MHz wide radio frequency allocation would be more than a single broadcaster would need, even with side-by-side MPEG-4 3D.

The government could declare a DVB-T2 MPEG4 digital dividend!

That's what you'd call progress.

Too fast? 9 months then. ;-)

Wait another 6 months, then consider a firmware update for the set top box. See post #57!

Edited by MLXXX, 19 April 2012 - 05:39 PM.

[nbound]

alanh, on 16 April 2012 - 08:47 PM, said:

I doubt that any viewers want to watch a whole program of a pair of squashed pictures. They want pictures which fill the screen.
All you are proving is that the receiver you used can decompress MPEG-4 signals. Just like the $27 HD MPEG-4 STB I saw in a chain store.

I dont doubt they want that at all, you stated that it would be unwatchable. I can watch it, Id choose not to but its definately there.

alanh, on 16 April 2012 - 08:47 PM, said:

All of the 100,000 STBs supplied to full pensioners for the digital conversion are all MPEG-4 capable. This number is going to drastically increase when the digital switchoff occurs in Brisbane & Perth installation program starts at the start of next year and for Sydney, Melbourne & Adelaide at the middle of next year..

That means nothing though, other than theres a good chance for an eventual change to MPEG4, which we already knew.

[MLXXX]

nbound, on 16 April 2012 - 10:01 PM, said:

I dont doubt they want that at all, you stated that it would be unwatchable. I can watch it, Id choose not to but its definately there.

I think there's a fairly obvious solution here that is staring at us in the face.

The Federal government legislates that set top boxes manufactured in Australia from a date 6 months hence will have the capacity to select the Left hand side of a side by side 3D broadcast, and double its width (an option for 2D sets).

_______

On a more creative note, the L shaped method that has been suggested for creating a frame compatible 2D picture is interesting as 2D sets can display a correct aspect ratio picture, just a little smaller than usual.  Here's how it works:

X X X Y
X X X Y
Y Y Y Y

Xs represent Left frame content about 2/3rds original size (readily viewed on a 2D set)
Ys represent Right frame content as two separate strips (not readily viewed)

And then in a progressive move, the Federal government legislates that set top boxes manufactured 6 months hence will have the capacity to change L sterescopic format to half-width side-by-side format, for existing TV sets.  Owners of 3D sets may purchase the new set top box. Problem solved! We would have a frame compatible 3D system in Australia readily viewable on unmodified 2D sets.

But there's more...

In addition the new set top box would be able to isolate the Left frame content of the new L stereoscopic format and expand it to full screen size for 2D sets!

Edited by MLXXX, 17 April 2012 - 12:27 AM.

[James T Kirk]

Olympics 3D TV is planned to be 16QAM, 8k, ¾ FEC, 1/8 Guard Interval  on an available UHF channel in each capital except Hobart and Darwin.
The transmitters used will not be related to or shared in any way with Community TV or SBS TV as was improperly reported earlier by another..
It will carry two streams.
One other area soon to be confirmed pending confirmation of interference analysis.

Edited by James T Kirk, 16 April 2012 - 11:02 PM.

[MLXXX]

Personally, I am very pleased to hear (albeit only unofficially from a reliable source, the Classic Trek captain) that the proposal is going ahead.

It's a good news story. Far better to get snippets of the Olympics in 3D live (or with a few hours' delay) on free to air than to be tempted to download it somehow from the net as a "grey import", or having to wait for a Blu-ray to be released.

Politicians can smell what will be popular with the electorate, and its not going to hurt Nine's standing in the public eye to provide the coverage [particularly if there were not even one conventional ad aired, and instead merely a sponsor or two mentioned].

I'll be firing up my MPEG-4 capable PVR to record all sessions...   :-)

Edited by MLXXX, 17 April 2012 - 12:06 AM.

[GoForMoe]

I still find it hard to see any justification for the trial, especially as the technical specifications sound identical to last time. Though it sounds like Canberra might be included this time, which would certainly be an interesting twist on the political factors surrounding long term 3D.

What a country we live in - Friday Night Football isn't in HD but the Olympics will be in 3D.

[MLXXX]

alanh, on 16 April 2012 - 05:51 PM, said:

The last 3-D trials reduced the resolution to 960 x 540 using MPEG-4 compression.

Alanh, as I recall, the format was half-width side-by-side fitted in a 1920x1080i25 frame, i.e 960x1080 pixels available per eye (prior to rescaling to 1920x1080 per eye to restore the aspect ratio).

(I still have recordings of side-by-side transport streams I received off air in Brisbane in 2010, revealing interlace comb patterns.)

Edited by MLXXX, 17 April 2012 - 01:43 AM.

[GoForMoe]

MLXXX, on 17 April 2012 - 01:20 AM, said:

Alanh, as I recall, the format was half width side-by-side fitted in a 1920x1080i25 frame, i.e 960x1080 pixels per eye.

I'd suggest he's referencing the interlacing making it 540 lines per frame, so with half the horizontal resolution it could be called 960x540.

Assuming for a moment it was feasible in the bandwidth, does anyone know what common TVs would do if fed a 3840x1080 picture (i or p) or perhaps even 1920x2160i? We established earlier it's unlikely that any TV currently on the market could do much with an MVC signal (as even the 3D blu-ray players convert to the top/bottom format) - is there any other form of 3D would be compatible with existing 3DTVs that could increase per-frame resolution beyond what Alan calls 960x540? Sure there's 1080p, but you still have the significant horizontal resolution loss.

[MLXXX]

GoForMoe, on 17 April 2012 - 01:47 AM, said:

I'd suggest he's referencing the interlacing making it 540 lines per frame, so with half the horizontal resolution it could be called 960x540.

Well on that basis, normal 2D transmissions these days on Nine Digital for the news have a resolution of 720 x 288!!! (Actually 720x576i25.) The side by side 3D transmissions in 2010 had much higher resolution than today's standard definition 2D broadcasts, including a great deal of our local sports coverage these days. We were provided with  960x540* pixels per eye 3D, as opposed to the 720x288* pixels we get for standard definition 2D sport.

If the format used in 2010 is repeated in July and August this year, we will get the London Olympics in superior resolution to a lot of our own local sport, and in stereoscopic 3D on top of that.

If the UK or Australian broadcaster wants to avoid interlacing, cameras (or, in some cases, processing) can be set for 25p, and 3D broadcasting can take place at 1080 progressive segmented frame 25fps side by side which will give you 960x1080 resolution per eye, but poor motion fluidity. Ok for interviews but not recommended for sports action, which requires faster motion updates to look good.

Another approach would be to use 1280x720p50 as side by side, giving 640x720p50 per eye. Not a bad option for sport for fluidity,  but rather poor as regards horizontal resolution, a little worse than the Nine Network's station  GO!.

In Australia the highest resolution 2D broadcast formats available are 1920x1080i25 and 1280x720p50. We have no separate 3D transmission standard. 3D's Left and Right "subframes" have to be fitted within standard 2D frames, in a "frame compatible format'' that 3D TV sets can utilise to extract 3D from the 2D frames. The subframes are squashed to fit into the 2D frame aspect ratio for transmission, and then rescaled back to their original aspect ratio in the 3D TV.

You either split the 2D frame vertically for half-height top and bottom Left and Right subframes, or you split it horizontally for half-width side-by-side Left and Right subframes. Unfortunately, no superior resolution is available at this time.
_________________

* Adopting the very conservative appoach of counting only half of the horizontal lines.

Edited by MLXXX, 17 April 2012 - 06:14 PM.

[DrP]

CWulf, on 16 April 2012 - 07:55 PM, said:

Talk about pot calling the kettle black, although if anyone knows what irrelevant posts look like ...

Typical fare for alanh though.  His MPEG-4 AVC crusade must continue at any cost.

Ignore the minister's comments regarding post analogue switch off.
Ignore that PRIME, ABC, WIN all transmit MPEG-2 only despite them supposedly commencing MPEG-4 AVC terrestrial some time ago.
Ignore that new terrestrial services in regional WA are MPEG-2.
Ignore that even alanh's most vocal supporter admits that the networks themselves advise no action until post analogue switch off.
Ignore ACMA's research.
Ignore general industry research.
Ignore that the FTAs need to seek permission from ACMA to transmit MPEG-4 AVC on their current services, even for special one off events..
Ignore that 7 yanked MPEG-4 AVC for its datacasting channel TV4ME and replaced it with MPEG-2.

Just ignore EVERYTHING and commence MPEG-4 AVC for all services right now.  Stuff anyone that can't receive it!

Oh no, sorry, wait, push the schedule back a bit more since EVERY single other prediction has come, gone and never been seen again.  In fact, let's revise the many past stances and pick.... oh I dunno, 2014.  That way the position suddenly falls into line with what the minster said, even though the minster never said it, and even if he did say it, which he didnt, it was via a media release which "doesn't cut it"... but only when its not used as a source of information elsewhere.  Just in case though, mention 2018 that way one's arse is still covered

Yes basil, each and every point in that last paragraph has issued forth from the pen of alanh and can be linked to.

Edited by DrP, 17 April 2012 - 06:11 AM.

[DrP]

James T Kirk, on 16 April 2012 - 10:59 PM, said:

Olympics 3D TV is planned to be 16QAM, 8k, ¾ FEC, 1/8 Guard Interval  on an available UHF channel in each capital except Hobart and Darwin.
The transmitters used will not be related to or shared in any way with Community TV or SBS TV as was improperly reported earlier by another..
It will carry two streams.
One other area soon to be confirmed pending confirmation of interference analysis.

A useful post.  Hopefully it dispells some myths, but I doubt it will silence the source.

[MLXXX]

DrP, on 17 April 2012 - 05:41 AM, said:

Just ignore EVERYTHING and commence MPEG-4 AVC for all services right now.  Stuff anyone that can't receive it!

This of course in not how things are done in Australia. Politicians, wishing to be re-elected, avoid instant law changes that would inconvenience voters. And broadcasters tend to avoid disenfranchising even small percentages of their potential viewing audience.

Even my tongue in cheek "very progressive" suggestion in this thread of a time frame of 6 months or 9 months would be far too rapid a move, in Australia. And in most other parts of the world I would think.

Edited by MLXXX, 18 April 2012 - 01:29 AM.

[McDigital]

G'day,

Issued today

http://www.acma.gov....RD/pc=PC_410348

[DrP]

Sorry McDigital.  I hate to tell you, but that's a media release and as we all know they simply don't cut it.  

Now before the looney bin opens and things pop out, please note:  this is a technical trial of 3D broadcasting.  It will go away.  It is not a full time transmission.  In case of reality crashing in, escape doors are above the wings on the left and right side of the cabin.  Thankyou for your attention.

[McDigital]

G'day DrP,

It may be a media release, but it all but confirms that in those cities listed, the 3D trial will be on, from July 16th

For those outside capital cities....they miss out

Channel numbers, unconfirmed, so I'd be watching the ACMA database as to when the licence is issued

[GoForMoe]

The Gold Coast is interesting, how exactly are they finding a spare channel for both Brisbane and the Gold Coast? The spare assignments for the Gold Coast are the same as Brisbane, 38 and 50. CTQ (31 Digital) uses the 38 allocation and the previous Brisbane 3D trial occurred on channel 50. Sure there's the analogue switchoff, but I'd doubt whether enough time has passed to achieve an interference plan for an allocation of a different frequency to the Gold Coast.

SFNs with Brisbane and the Gold Coast would surely have been tried and dismissed by now?

[DrP]

McDigital, on 20 April 2012 - 02:11 PM, said:

It may be a media release, but it all but confirms that in those cities listed, the 3D trial will be on, from July 16th

... it sure is, and I fully expect one well known forum member to start waving it around and making various declarations, despite him having said that media releases "don't cut it".

[davmel]

McDigital, on 20 April 2012 - 02:11 PM, said:

For those outside capital cities....they miss out

No one in Australia will miss out as long as they hook up a HD satellite STB to their 3DTV. If you've already spent the money on a 3D TV plus the glasses then spending a little more money on a HD satellite STB and connecting it to your Austar/Foxtel dish isn't going to be an issue.

[alanh]

Goe for moe,
SBS Channel 50 still has Gympie Town analog on air.
The SBS SFN from the Sunshine Coast through Brisbane to the Gold Coast is still in operation on channel 36
Since CTQ31 is now off the air ABQ31 is still on air on low power in Tweed Heads as well as NEN in Grafton/Kempsey on high power

Good luck.
AlanH

[DrP]

davmel, on 22 April 2012 - 02:29 PM, said:

No one in Australia will miss out as long as they hook up a HD satellite STB to their 3DTV. If you've already spent the money on a 3D TV plus the glasses then spending a little more money on a HD satellite STB and connecting it to your Austar/Foxtel dish isn't going to be an issue.

No indeed.  The issue will simply be knowing that such a thing is even possible.  Apart from the technically informed, such as people that lurk on this forum, the average person with a 3D set wouldn't be aware of the details of how the service is being carried around the country.

[doodlefeatures]

I wonder if it'll be on channel 200, SBS showed some of the world cup in 3D on 200 I think