72 replies to this topic

[Chopsus]

Hi guys,
I finally received notification of PayPal's "investigation" into JB HiFi charging my account for delivering 2 of the 3 titles ordered in their recent Buy 2 get 1 free promotion, as described here

"Dear Chopsus,

We have concluded our investigation into your Buyer Claim. We regret to
inform you that we were unable to resolve this case because the complaint
was incomplete, issued incorrectly, or outside the bounds of coverage as
defined in our User Agreement. When you pay for 2 items and are to receive
a 3rd but only get 2, we consider that as a completed sale.  We do not
cover a free item under our protection policy.  As a result, we have not
taken any action at this time. Please be assured that this case has been
noted in the seller's record for future reference."

Curiously on checking JB's order history, the title they have not sent, which was on back order, they have now cancelled, without notifying me at all.

Next stop Consumer Affair Victoria I guess ... just for a laugh ... not delivering the "free" title has to be a breach of the law.

I think what Paypal have decided is wrong, is anyone aware of a complaints organisation for the financial services industry? I may as well copy and paste the same complaint off to them for the sake of the 2 mins it will take.

Edited by Chopsus, 02 April 2012 - 09:20 AM.

[ajm]

Perhaps it might have worked if it was described as "3 for the price of 2" sale. So nothing would have been "free" as such.

A claim at the small claims tribunal is an option but it will cost more to register the complaint than it will to buy the disc.  The option is there though.

[mr-happy-pants]

Consider contract law.

If you made a purchase based on the deal ie you would not have purchased otherwise, you have not been delivered what was promised. Breach of contract.

1st point of contract is 'Offer'. They offered this (as a complete package).
2nd point of contract is 'Acceptance'. You accepted what they offered. you are now in a contract.

They have not delivered what they offered, or they changed the offer without your consent. Breach of contract.

Calmly stick to this (you have not received what was offered).

Best of luck.

[Quark]

If Paypal payment was charged against your credit card, ask the card provider for a charge back - the claim is more likely to get up on the basis that Payscam didn't provide the buyer protection they promise.

[SDL]

strange really, forgetting every legal aspect of it and just using plain bloody common sense, if Paypal accept this is okay then I could offer up all sorts of free items with sales and just withhold. How about a car for $10K with a free engine, wheels and doors?

[Chopsus]

mr-happy-pants, on 02 April 2012 - 09:55 AM, said:

Consider contract law.

If you made a purchase based on the deal ie you would not have purchased otherwise, you have not been delivered what was promised. Breach of contract.

1st point of contract is 'Offer'. They offered this (as a complete package).
2nd point of contract is 'Acceptance'. You accepted what they offered. you are now in a contract.

They have not delivered what they offered, or they changed the offer without your consent. Breach of contract.

Calmly stick to this (you have not received what was offered).

Best of luck.

Yes - this is my take on it and how I will proceed ..... not sure about taking Paypal head on via a credit card chargeback as I use them a lot and my problem is really with JB HiFraud.

[:)]

I'm supposed to get a $100 billabong voucher from Sony..... God knows when ?

I can see have no come back on a free voucher when that never comes through either ?

That's pathetic on paypal a part.

Yeah I'd take it too em chops. They have admitted the free bee never provided. Now to enforce that was the terms of the sale. How many people are jb ripping off like this. How many will bother to complain ?

[pgdownload]

SDL, on 02 April 2012 - 10:14 AM, said:

How about a car for $10K with a free engine, wheels and doors?

A few years back when Blurays we're just taking off, there were quite a few supermarket deals where you could buy 10 BRs and get a free BR Player. I always wondered if this was a clever attempt to get around various waranty / contract laws (i.e you would just be offered a full refund on the free BR Player if it broke down....)

I'd assume JBHiFi would have various clauses about altering shipments at their discretion. Non delivery of an item would usually get a refund for that item (in this case nothing). Taken as part of a wider returns policy it seems reasonable onable, however the potential for abuse is obvious.

So if the clause involved says "We will refund any money for undelivered items" that is probably quite legal. If it says "We will not refund for additional items where a free item has not been delivered" then that is probably not allowed IMO.

Note that Paypal having the second approach is probably still legal for its "Insurance poilcy" but JBHiFi would probably have to have the first approach. (Same way Standards and Poors are currently arguing that as a ratings agency they just offer "opinions" on stock values and are in no way providing financial "advice" )

0.02

Peter Gillespie

[minty]

What was the name of the actual title they never sent Chops?

[Chopsus]

seatonrocks, on 02 April 2012 - 01:53 PM, said:

What was the name of the actual title they never sent Chops?

The Kiiling Fields ... which is now showing as in stock on thier system .... I suspect they are being very silly and have cancelled it as payback for complaining to Paypal.

What I think is more annoying is when I put in the original order, no single title was nominated as the free one ... JB has simply decided that the last one to be delivered is the free one, therefore used this as thier basis for telling Paypal the order was complete and getting my money (which was why I orignally complained as I believe this is obtaining clearance of funds by fraud) ... but them now cancelling that title emphasises their dishonesty even more.

There were two transactions that this affected and Paypal has allowed the other one to go foward as a dispute on the basis that it is now "goods recieved significantly different to what was described" so we may well see them come good on that one .... but Consumer Affair will be getting and email ... still wondering if I can annoy the Securities and Investments commmison (or similar) about it too though. .... the real problem is it;s a $15 BD and I am sure they are betting on the fact that I wont invest more time chaseing it ......

...... as you all know, I am, if anything, a persistant charecter LOL! and don't give up lightly.

Edited by Chopsus, 02 April 2012 - 02:34 PM.

[SDL]

I picked it up at the Southland store - but that doesn't help you at all so I will just shut up now

[pgdownload]

Quote

All items in this catalogue are advertised in good faith to be available at time of sale. However, unforeseen manufacturing, supply or delivery problems or unexpected demand may occasionally result in stock unavailability. Rainchecks will be offered where possible.

Not really sure there's much room to move on this. If there was only one free title you could choose and it went out of stock then a "raincheck" may not be possible (They can't refund $0). If there are a range of titles (and some are still available) then JB should have offered the opportunity to choose one of those. Failing that they seem well within their rights to simply cancel the last item.

Regards

Peter Gillespie

[Chopsus]

pgdownload, on 02 April 2012 - 03:26 PM, said:

Not really sure there's much room to move on this. If there was only one free title you could choose and it went out of stock then a "raincheck" may not be possible (They can't refund $0). If there are a range of titles (and some are still available) then JB should have offered the opportunity to choose one of those. Failing that they seem well within their rights to simply cancel the last item.

Regards

Peter Gillespie

It was released later than they expected and the particilar title is now showing as in stock .... SDL bought it in a B&M store recently.

IF they had nominated that particular title as the free one when i ordered it, then i might be less inclined to persist, but their method for deciding the "free" one is simply the last one they send.

I think they should have to allocate one of the ones they did send me (ie: Tron Original) as the Free one and refund me the one they failed to delliver - $15.95 please ..... I would even be happy with what I actually paid for the missing title ($31.90/3 = $10.63) ... but given they have not replied to ANY of my emails, nor notified me of the cancellation at all (I had to find it via my order history), I call "Shenanegans!" and will now bring in Consumer Affairs.

[SDL]

They should at a minimum give him the option of cancelling the whole transaction

[Chopsus]

Yes - but they have not comuniicated with me AT ALL, let alone offered any opportunity other than cancelation, which I was not going to do given it was showing as $0 on their system ..... their lack of communication on the billing issue is exactly why I made a paypal claim, and they did not reply ot me via that system either .... it would seem they have talked to the paypal investigator for paypal to have made their decision, but I have not been privy to any of that ... so god only knows what claims they may have made and paypal are now backing them up on.

[mr-happy-pants]

Chopsus, on 02 April 2012 - 02:33 PM, said:

... as you all know, I am, if anything, a persistant charecter LOL! and don't give up lightly.

If you don't fight, you lose!

It's a battle of the wills.
They think you will give up. I hope you will not give up!

[minty]

Chops, maybe just ring them now direct and explain the situation, ask them nicely that seeing as the title is in stock would they be willing to now honour the agreement and send it to you. If they still won't then go to consumer affairs. Might be worth a try and I understand it shouldn't have come to this, but could be the way to go. Just a suggestion.

[pgdownload]

Quote

I think they should have to allocate one of the ones they did send me

Maybe. But then it would follow that a "buy one get one free" offer would quite often end with customers just getting free stuff in a similar situation. I don't think companies that don't have such an approach are bad.

Quote

It was released later than they expected and the particilar title is now showing as in stock

It would appear that the title is not the same as the one you ordered - even though you view it as the same. Marketting campaigns usually involve set budgets, stock and timeframes. For example JBHiFi may have scored a container load of a certain title free as a bonus for some other bulk title purchase. They offer that title as a bonus freebie to customers. Once that container load is sold then JBHiFi can no longer make the same offer.

Quote

but given they have not replied to ANY of my emails, nor notified me of the cancellation at all (I had to find it via my order history),

Agreed, crappy service and they deserve to lose you custom (and anyone else you can convince).

In the end though I suspect that JB just told paypal that the goods are as described (including the fact that any unavailable goods are subject to a 'raincheck if possible' clause) and that given the $0 worth of the final item its "not possible". Paypal also seem to explicitly support this situation with their terms and conditions.

Love a good stoush with bad businesses, but at the moment your complaint seems to come down to "The last book shouldn't be the free one."  and "Realy poor customer service", neither of which would seem enough to get a legal body interested.

Good luck though

Peter Gillespie

Quote

Chops, maybe just ring them now direct and explain the situation

Agree, might be resolved much quicker if you just left all the stuff to date out and started afresh - just let them know your order and that the item has come in and that you'd like it completed. I'd be interested in any company that would come back and say "Yes we have it now but we don't want to give it to you"

Edited by pgdownload, 02 April 2012 - 04:14 PM.

[Chopsus]

seatonrocks, on 02 April 2012 - 04:08 PM, said:

Chops, maybe just ring them now direct and explain the situation, ask them nicely that seeing as the title is in stock would they be willing to now honour the agreement and send it to you. If they still won't then go to consumer affairs. Might be worth a try and I understand it shouldn't have come to this, but could be the way to go. Just a suggestion.

Nah ,,,, I prefer the prospect of a fight, followed by rubbing their noses in it  ...... this is not my first one along these lines .... so far I have recieved written apppologies from the Tax Department, Medicare and Origin Energy to name a few .... all because they thought I would "go away".

I have email JB a please explain, as I need to do this as part fo the process with Consumer Affairs, now I need to wait a "reasonable period" for their response (2 weeks I reckon) then I can foward the file on to Consumer Affairs .... all of about 30 mins work given it's all in emails and screen grabs.

Still thinking about pursuing Paypals decision, if only because the sent it from a no reply address ... worse actually, the address shows as "<>"  just a blank field.

[Chopsus]

pgdownload, on 02 April 2012 - 04:11 PM, said:

It would appear that the title is not the same as the one you ordered - even though you view it as the same. Marketting campaigns usually involve set budgets, stock and timeframes. For example JBHiFi may have scored a container load of a certain title free as a bonus for some other bulk title purchase. They offer that title as a bonus freebie to customers. Once that container load is sold then JBHiFi can no longer make the same offer.

Peter, the "offer" is still running now with that title available ..... what you have said above does not really apply given this .... I am also very aware of how marketing and promotional budgets work.

[pgdownload]

Chopsus, on 02 April 2012 - 04:21 PM, said:

Peter, the "offer" is still running now with that title available ..... what you have said above does not really apply given this

Agree. Seems pretty straight forward - you paid for it, they've got it - a call to customer service should sort it out. My comments were more directed to the case where they no longer have stock.

You assume PayPal bothered contacting JBHiFi. As your situation is expressly noted in Paypals terms and conditions, it would seem more likely you've just been sent a polite email reminding you of the relevant clause. Paypal offer insurance, not to uphold your statutory rights. There is no right or wrong with them deciding what they cover and what they don't, only if you're willing to accept the terms or not.

I've no doubt once you get through a few letters, at some point someone at JB will realise the error and correct it (fingers crossed you might even score a store voucher ).

Regards

Peter Gillespie

[Chopsus]

Received this email from JB HiFraud:


JB Hi-Fi Online Customer Service to me
show details 5:55 PM (10 minutes ago)
Hi Chopsus,

Thanks for your email.

This item was split from your original order. As this was the free bluray title as chosen for the Buy 2 Get 1 Free, the system failed to process this order as it was at zero dollars.

We advised our warehouse to send it regardless, as this was the free part of your order. This item should have arrived to you by now, so can you please advise if it has not, so that we can arrange a replacement if needed.

Regards,

Adrian | Online Customer Service Team | JB Hi-fi Online
Australia: www.jbhifionline.com.au | New Zealand: http://shop.jbhifi.co.nz

"The system failed"? Yet they "advised" the warehouse to send it anyway?  Yet the item never arrived?

Sounds like BullFrog to me .... like I said, two weeks, if it's not sorted I;ll press send on the email to Consumer Affairs Victoria ... all for $10 ... she's, it;s not worth the bad publicity alone for a $10 item .... they must be truly, really incompetent and I asked them WTF several times before going to PayPal and they claim to have contacted them twice .... they deserve all they get in bad will  and poor publicity going by this.

[minty]

Chops in no way am I defending JB, but I will say they would be processing thousands of orders every month, and could easily stuff up as they clearly have in your case. Even if they are making excuses, looks like you will be receiving what you ordered. Maybe let it go and move on?

[:)]

good to hear, chops their systems for online purchase are a complete and utter mess at times, below what I posted with my last purchase from jbonline...

Quote

purchasing from jbhifi online last weekend. what a balls up ! after hitting buy (on an in stock item), I get an email back saying out of stock and item might be as much as 1-2 weeks or more before can be delivered. then get an email saying due to being quite busy and might be better off to contact local store. which I did, they said they had item in stock so I could just come pick one up. went picked one up, lady at the jb store said just to cancel the online order. which I then came back home to do. and guess what then get another email that says oops sorry previous email in error and item had been despatched ! said to reply to the email if any issue, which didnt work - bounced back. so had to send an email via their contact us. to which they said sorry and to return the item to the store when receive it. so ended up with two items and had to go return the one sent by the website. should have just gone to the store and bought the bloody thing the old fashioned way !

fair to say either a one off **** up or their systems can just go a bit astray ! *blink*

[Chopsus]

I suspect, just like their B&M stores, their online system runs on even uglier emo's more interested in their mobile phones and piercings that the job they are doing.

I still find it hard to believe that there system simply cancels an order because it is of $0 value .... this would suggest they have deliberately built it to misplace promotional items and orders?  I think not .... I still say "shenanigans" is in play.

Seatonrocks, if they fulfill the order I don't have any choice but to let it go as I then have no reason to go to Fair Trading .... I have no doubt it will turn up before it gets to that point ....


I'm still not sure Paypals take on things is correct though .... regardless of the item being free, the order was NOT complete and they should not have released the funds to JB HiFraud.

Edited by Chopsus, 02 April 2012 - 07:08 PM.