60 replies to this topic

[kwarrior]

Hi all....

I have been away for so long, that I feel that I am completely out of touch with the world of Entertainment Technology....

In the meanwhile, the Epson PJ has not given me any further trouble....but perhaps it is time for another round of Calibration....

My Oppo 83 is doing well....but I am seriously considering 3D!! (would that be an Oppo 93?)...and then I need a 3 D display...neither my Epson 4000 nor my Pio Kuro 50" do that....and I am loath to let go of my Kuro....

Problems!! Well....nice to be back..hopefully I can spend a bit more time on here....

KW

[Chopsus]

Good to see you back Kwarrior .. you don't need 3D it's just a gimmick ... Anything actually worth watching comes in 2d.

P.s. your absence had been noted.

Edited by Chopsus, 01 April 2012 - 12:16 PM.

[:)]

kwarrior, on 01 April 2012 - 12:07 PM, said:

Hi all....

I have been away for so long, that I feel that I am completely out of touch with the world of Entertainment Technology....

In the meanwhile, the Epson PJ has not given me any further trouble....but perhaps it is time for another round of Calibration....

My Oppo 83 is doing well....but I am seriously considering 3D!! (would that be an Oppo 93?)...and then I need a 3 D display...neither my Epson 4000 nor my Pio Kuro 50" do that....and I am loath to let go of my Kuro....

Problems!! Well....nice to be back..hopefully I can spend a bit more time on here....

KW

as a pio kuro owner, and someone with previous gen epson tw5500, who has moved across to latest 3D epson pj some thoughts might be of help.

I would firstly say, nah why let go of the kuro. keep it. nothing you get in a flat screen will replace that. you have a drop down screen in anycase so no reason for the kuro to be dispensed with.

if edging for 3D with a projector, the good news is the latest epsons basically take a step or two forward for 2D and add what in my opinion is superb 3D performance. and the best part is they havent ramped up the price or anything, they are still priced at the price point of the previous range.

keep in mind for 3D likely your avr if its an old one is unlikely to be able to pass through 3D. as with your source BD player, unless oppo 93/95 and later models, you'll need to update. good news there is australian landed prices for oppos has actually dropped as well. with local distributor support. the way around the quandry of the avr is if you use any of the above players with twin hdmi outs, you can get away without updating your avr.

your hdmi cable your running if a very old one, unless a high speed one will need updating. again here if dont want to run a new cable. epson to the rescue their latest 9000w utilises hdmi wireless, which having used myself before updating my processor can tell you works extremely well for the purpose. what you do here is run one hdmi out from your bd player to the wireless hdmi, the other to your avr and whamo

if wanting to dip a toe in, I'd say dont hesitate. its all good and if what looking for will be much impressed

[kwarrior]

Chopsus, on 01 April 2012 - 12:15 PM, said:

Good to see you back Kwarrior .. you don't need 3D it's just a gimmick ... Anything actually worth watching comes in 2d.

P.s. your absence had been noted.

LOL!! Nice to see you here still, Choppy!! And awfully active too....6000 odd posts...??!! I
I was wondering whether this 3D was all hype..but noting that there are so many 3D stuff coming to cinemas....was wondering if I should spend some money on a 3 D player and display!!

Hope Warnambool is nice and warm, this April Fools Day...

[kwarrior]

Al...nice to hear from you again, matey....thanks for that detail....Yamaha 3800 AVR...with those HDMI cables that I got from Foxtail....they work well...
My Drop Down Screen has become extremely temperamental...it only works early in the morning...I am guessing it needs to be very cool otherwise, it just doesnt work...so if I need to use the screen, I need to drop in early in the morning...to view something over the PJ in the night...

My Yammi too, has become a touch inconsistent...I loose all audio via the centre speaker....sometimes.....and then increasing the volume...generally restores the centre audio....but it is rather inconsistent...

Opp0 93, and a new Epson PJ is what you are suggesting....and hopefully continue to use my old Yammi and the old HDMI cables....do you think that will work, Al?

I am thinking I need to overhaul some of my equipment....but not all of it...hopefully..
Cheers

:), on 01 April 2012 - 12:22 PM, said:

as a pio kuro owner, and someone with previous gen epson tw5500, who has moved across to latest 3D epson pj some thoughts might be of help.

I would firstly say, nah why let go of the kuro. keep it. nothing you get in a flat screen will replace that. you have a drop down screen in anycase so no reason for the kuro to be dispensed with.

if edging for 3D with a projector, the good news is the latest epsons basically take a step or two forward for 2D and add what in my opinion is superb 3D performance. and the best part is they havent ramped up the price or anything, they are still priced at the price point of the previous range.

keep in mind for 3D likely your avr if its an old one is unlikely to be able to pass through 3D. as with your source BD player, unless oppo 93/95 and later models, you'll need to update. good news there is australian landed prices for oppos has actually dropped as well. with local distributor support. the way around the quandry of the avr is if you use any of the above players with twin hdmi outs, you can get away without updating your avr.

your hdmi cable your running if a very old one, unless a high speed one will need updating. again here if dont want to run a new cable. epson to the rescue their latest 9000w utilises hdmi wireless, which having used myself before updating my processor can tell you works extremely well for the purpose. what you do here is run one hdmi out from your bd player to the wireless hdmi, the other to your avr and whamo

if wanting to dip a toe in, I'd say dont hesitate. its all good and if what looking for will be much impressed

[MLXXX]

kwarrior, on 01 April 2012 - 01:03 PM, said:

I was wondering whether this 3D was all hype..but noting that there are so many 3D stuff coming to cinemas....was wondering if I should spend some money on a 3 D player and display!!

Some people love stereoscopic 3D, some loathe it. I'd recommend a visit to a cinema to take in a 3D movie so you can make your own assessment.

I'd avoid a post-production 3D simulation and go for a movie shot with separate Left and Right cameras. This website lists "real" and "fake" 3D movies:  http://realorfake3d.com/

[:)]

kwarrior, on 01 April 2012 - 01:08 PM, said:

Al...nice to hear from you again, matey....thanks for that detail....Yamaha 3800 AVR...with those HDMI cables that I got from Foxtail....they work well...
My Drop Down Screen has become extremely temperamental...it only works early in the morning...I am guessing it needs to be very cool otherwise, it just doesnt work...so if I need to use the screen, I need to drop in early in the morning...to view something over the PJ in the night...

My Yammi too, has become a touch inconsistent...I loose all audio via the centre speaker....sometimes.....and then increasing the volume...generally restores the centre audio....but it is rather inconsistent...

Opp0 93, and a new Epson PJ is what you are suggesting....and hopefully continue to use my old Yammi and the old HDMI cables....do you think that will work, Al?

I am thinking I need to overhaul some of my equipment....but not all of it...hopefully..
Cheers

good to see you around aswell K.

yes while be nice to do a complete overhaul, for most of us an unlikely scenario.

yes beleive if you just update on the player and new PJ youd have a pretty workable situation that will deliver. its what I did for a while when went to the 3D epson and had my processor that hadnt had its 3D update as yet. works no probs.

another alternative to the oppo would be add a second player. ie keep the oppo for all it does now. just add a tosh 3D player about $150 I think and its region free wiht a firmware update as well. so all up for the price of a wireless hdmi epson and a $150 player youd be good to go

and then down the track, look as funds permit can look at updating the yam, the new aventage models are pretty damn good. thats the beauty of stringing things out sometimes this stuff just gets better and cheaper. so no harm in waiting

[:)]

kwarrior, on 01 April 2012 - 01:03 PM, said:

LOL!! Nice to see you here still, Choppy!! And awfully active too....6000 odd posts...??!! I
I was wondering whether this 3D was all hype..but noting that there are so many 3D stuff coming to cinemas....was wondering if I should spend some money on a 3 D player and display!!

Hope Warnambool is nice and warm, this April Fools Day...

this thread well worth a read,

http://www.dtvforum....showtopic=96421

will give you some real world feedback from forum members here of ones to check out and ones to stay away from. there is a lot of cr@p 3D around which is just gimmick ie fake 3D. but in the mix there is also real actual filmed 3D or stuff that is 3D from its beginings rather than stuff that was 2D and they have tried to make it look 3D with effects and it turns out looking very gimmicky. but yeah stick to the good stuff and it does indeed add the 3rd dimension of depth. both into and out from the screen. a projector setup is essential for this immersion in my opinion. and with and end result that works very well in a domestic situation better even than the sub par commercial theatres doing a very poor job on 3D. if want to really be blown away by 3D go see IMAX but ofcourse your going to struggle to recreate something like that in the home

[MLXXX]

:), on 01 April 2012 - 01:26 PM, said:

a projector setup is essential for this immersion in my opinion. and with and end result that works very well in a domestic situation better even than the sub par commercial theatres doing a very poor job on 3D.

Your home shutter glasses, Al, operate at 120Hz and the public cinema RealD projector alternates polarisation at 144Hz providing less timing discrepancy between Left and Right than your home cinema. (I have raised this issue previously in this forum.)

Why do you feel that a 3D home projector such as yours costing a few thousand dollars is superior to a suburban theatre's projector costing $80k plus? Is it perhaps the stray light from Exit safety signs?

I don't understand this elitist attitude. If you like the convenience of seeing a 3D movie at home when you want to see it, and free of potentially noisy or even smelly fellow patrons, that's understandable, but please don't delude yourself into thinking that the visual quality of your home system is better.

(I am assuming a good seating position in the public cinema, and in the home cinema.)

I have no idea what suburban cinemas you have been to that have been "doing a very poor job on 3D". The small theatres in cinema complexes I've been to in Brisbane do an excellent job with 3D. I understand, too, that the bitrate of the 3D video in a commercial digital cinema exceeds that of home Blu-rays.

[:)]

no "elitist attitude" and no dillusion here, just telling it like it is. good for you if you find commercial theatres better for you. but not in my case. I visit commercial theatres more as a social experience. night out wiht my wife as we like going to the movies, but the commercial theatres I visit here are dim, dark in picture. in both SQ and PQ can experience far better in the home. and am not alone. I have visited many people whom achieve better in their home than in commercial theatres.

Imax being exception to all above. pretty hard to recreate that in the home.

I know you like taking threads way off topic and arguing on and on for pages and pages which I want no part off. Id suggest your better off taking it to the appropriate thread. eg this one here which isnt really hard to find and in which people been sharing their experineces,

http://www.dtvforum....showtopic=99576

[MLXXX]

That thread is about sound.  Your claim, Al, was about 3D picture quality. You made the claim in this thread. If you don't wish to pursue your claim further than you have already, that's fine. (Sound is a completely different argument, though I note that a full set of public cinema speakers might cost ten times as much as a set of home mid-quality audiophile speakers, partly because of the power handling capability and durability required.)

Edited by MLXXX, 01 April 2012 - 05:10 PM.

[cwt]

MLXXX ;maybe you missed the 'diatribe' from Mr Bay about projectionists not ramping up the required brightness for 3d with their lamps [as the $$ to replace them affects the bottom line ] I wouldnt be surprised if a few out here may do similarly....

http://www.slashfilm...mers-dark-moon/

[MLXXX]

Perhaps so, cwt, with some public cinemas. I did miss that 'contribution'. I've found the 3D brightness adequate (though not overpowering) at various cinemas in Brisbane and rather better than with my Panasonic VT-20 3D plasma, which is decidely dull at the "normal" picture setting. One of the issues with greater projector brightness is greater ghosting, reportedly a challenge with the movie Hugo for some home projectors.

However, even if the 3D picture is pleasantly bright, and ghost-free, there is still the issue of left-right phase lag.*
_________________

* I find the 144Hz of RealD at a public cinema hardly noticeable most of the time, 120Hz of a plasma or LCD display showing a 24fps 3D Blu-ray annoying, and 100Hz (often used for 25i or 50p sport) so distracting as to affect visibilty and fluidity of the motion. I think I'm more sensitive than the average person to flicker and to 3D Left-Right timing mismatch. I cannot contemplate acquiring a home projector with a phase lag as high as 8.33mS at 24fps.

Edited by MLXXX, 02 April 2012 - 01:35 AM.

[Chicken Man]

Hi kwarrior, welcome back.

On the techy side of things, 3D is ' what you see is what you get ! ' As previously mentioned there's some good 3D movies available but there's also a lot of 'post-production 3D' rubbish too.

Like all innovations 3D will take time to mature as a technology, possibly a few years yet before I would consider it, at least by then there may be a larger catalogue of quality titles available. If 3D isn't taken up by the video stores it will not be adopted widespread by consumers. Just look at how long it took Blu-ray to get some shelf space in the video outlets.

That aside, 3D requires a reasonably large screen for one to be enveloped in the presentation and image brightness is important too in that engagement. So if you're interested in getting into it, it would be better to go to a decent theatre and asses it for yourself first before laying out the cash, and even then get a balance of opinions before commitment.

By the end of the year we should see 21:9 CinemaScope screens arriving on our shores. Harvey Norman usually gets into newly modeled TV's quite early, unfortunately no 21:9 plasma's have been listed to be in production yet though Panasonic has been rumoured to be working  on something. Will have to wait and see.
Panel manufacturers of both types have basically run out of options.....so it looks like this could be a niche market manufacturers will pursue in the near future, although the 16:9 TV's will still be produced.

Anyway, that's about it for now.

C.M

Edited by Chicken Man, 02 April 2012 - 12:36 PM.

[cwt]

MLXXX, on 01 April 2012 - 06:50 PM, said:

Perhaps so with some public cinemas. I did miss that "contribution". I've found the 3D brightness adequate (though not overpowering) at various cinemas in Brisbane and rather better than with my Panasonic VT-20 3D plasma, which is decidely dull at the "normal" picture setting. One of the issues with greater projector brightness is greater ghosting, reportedly a challenge with the movie Hugo for some home projectors.

However, even if the 3D picture is pleasantly bright, and ghost-free, there is still the issue of left-right phase lag.*
_________________

*I find the 144Hz of RealD at a public cinema hardly noticeable most of the time, 120Hz of a plasma or LCD display showing a 24fps 3D Blu-ray annoying, and 100Hz (often used for 25i or 50p sport) so distracting as to affect visibilty and fluidity of the motion. I think I'm more sensitive than the average person to flicker and to 3D Left-Right timing mismatch. I cannot contemplate acquiring a home projector with a phase lag as high as 8.33mS at 24fps.

If your in the market for a projector maybe you should take a look at the new sim2 models ;the 3d solo triple flashes for 144hz ; lesser models like the mico150 do a double flash though there may be something in the refresh rate of a led projector that helps flicker ;

http://www.avsforum....=1390900&page=2

Quote

On the M.150 this blanking period is said to be just .9ms as compared to 2ms for 480Hz LCD displays (4.1ms for 240Hz LCD displays)...over an 8.3ms frame period. Their assertion is that faster blanking eliminates ghosting and results in a smoother image with more 3D depth and realism.

The difference between 1st gen projectors and 2nd gen  is quite pronounced with brightness. My epson 9000 has a 230w lamp rather than a 200 and gives latitude ; practically no crosstalk with a good bd as I can drop the lamp to medium ; not to mention the 3rd gen glasses like the compatible pana's have a lighter tint than earlier versions..

[MLXXX]

Yes the Lumis 3D-SOLO performs a triple flash. I have found a webpage that quotes a price of $50,000:  http://theluxuryhub....ch-accessories/

Another approach is a projector with duplicate light engines, like the LG CF3D, which I believe came out in 2010. It provides nil Left-Right timing discrepancy, but of course requires an appropriately reflective screen for the polarised passive glasses.


In the meantime, I'm toying with the idea of getting one or two improved pairs of shutter glasses for my (dull in 3D mode) plasma display.

[kwarrior]

MLXXX, on 01 April 2012 - 01:15 PM, said:

Some people love stereoscopic 3D, some loathe it. I'd recommend a visit to a cinema to take in a 3D movie so you can make your own assessment.

I'd avoid a post-production 3D simulation and go for a movie shot with separate Left and Right cameras. This website lists "real" and "fake" 3D movies:  http://realorfake3d.com/

Thanks MLXX...Interesting article that....And Thanks Al / cwt for the link to the other thread...not being on here for so long, I did miss that very informative and sometimes, heated thread....great read!!

Chicken Man, on 02 April 2012 - 01:18 AM, said:

Hi kwarrior, welcome back.

Cheers CM...21:9..wow!! What next...!!

And thanks again for all the contributions....Like Al suggests, slow and steady for me...(with my upgrades that is)..
Have a nice week, all...

Cheers
KW

[mmu16]

I believe Phillips makes an LCD TV with 2.35:1 - the 'cinema' series.  Unfortunately I don't think they sell this model in Australia.

[Chicken Man]

mmu16, on 05 April 2012 - 11:57 AM, said:

I believe Phillips makes an LCD TV with 2.35:1 - the 'cinema' series.  Unfortunately I don't think they sell this model in Australia.

Early days yet but there is a definite move towards production. Philips have generally been market leaders towards introducing new techologies, it simplly takes time to generate consumer increase.
Once the Asian manufacturers begin production we will be see more brand names offering their wares.

I once had an expensive Sony 4:3 computer display and wished for something bigger, not particularly in the 16:9 format. When I did upgrade, it was to a Asus 16:9, 24"  LCD.
What a difference the extra screen real estate made to my use in writing posts and watching video and such. Just that extra third of screen extension makes all the difference visually and in convenience of use.
I just can't wait for the 21:9 format be incorporated in computer displays; all the extra space to contain multiple apps on screen without overlap, let alone the 'cinemascope' games that would become available to gamers.

C.M  

Edited by Chicken Man, 05 April 2012 - 02:17 PM.

[mr-happy-pants]

Hopefully, when I replace our last CRT (Sony Trintron), it'll be with a 21:9 AR plasma.

If I can stand to wait that long.

[mmu16]

Here's a link to the philips TV. They have been selling this in Europe for more than a year now
Looks mean!

http://www.philips.c...fl9956t_12/prd/

[Chicken Man]

Yes, I was well aware of that. We have discussed the 21:9 format in threads before. Like the 4K format it draws its ' for and against ' comments until they start appearing on the shelves of department stores.

Here is one from Vizio, a 58" incher.

http://www.theverge....cinemawide-3499

http://www.geek.com/...vision-2012024/

JVC have been a bit quiet for a year now when their 50 inch display becomes available in the USA.

http://www.highdefju...9-full-HD-3D-TV

http://www.1touchmov...ome-theater.php

I would much prefer a plasma rather than an LCD, but then I have an excellent 16:9 projector for the 21:9 format, though only 1920 x 810 is visible screen (very black masking an in a bat cave).

C.M

[Owen]

21:9 LCD's have been around for a couple of years, but LCD fails for picture quality and the screens where too small to be a viable alternative to a larger and much cheaper 16:9 displays.

Don't hold you breath waiting for a 21:9 Plasma.

[MarkTecher]

Good to see offerings other than just the over priced Phillips "Cinema 21:9" TV.

[Owen]

Good if the offerings are bigger and better.