7 replies to this topic

[MLXXX]

I purchased this TV in a round about process. I'd really been looking for a pc monitor screen around 27" with passive 3D technology. There are a few about to come onto the Australian market. One that's already available is the AOC E2752PHZ at around $385. However, for about $100 extra (advertised price $498), I could get the 42" SONIQ. That's a big enough size for a few people to view! A bit large for a monitor, but usable as such. In fact, I'm using it to type this post. To me, $500 was ok to spend on a large monitor / small TV, that would allow me to edit some of my 3D home videos without the flickering I get from my 50" Panasonic 3D Plasma (VT20).

SONIQ is a very cheap brand, sold by JB HI-FI and associated retailers. There are some other cheap passive Full HD TVs to choose from that are not much dearer (some of which are being sold by WOW, currently in receivership). LG passive models (a cheap, but mainstream brand) are more expensive. This year PANASONIC will be releasing LED LCD passive sets. (PANASONIC's 50" shutter glasses plasma sets have dropped to very low prices. It'll be interesting to see what the pricing is on PANASONIC's new LCD LED "ET5" passive range. See: http://ces.cnet.com/...passive-3d-lcd/ )

I'd seen the SONIQ in the showroom and had been a bit concerned with how visible the horizontal lines are close up when odd-numbered lines have one circular polarisation, and even lines the opposite sense circular polarisation. However, I was looking forward to escaping the timing mismatch I am sensitive to with shutter glasses operating at 120Hz. (At the cinema, where Real D is the norm for 3D, the polarisation alternates at 144Hz..) Also the colour didn't seem quite right with the SONIQs, but if the purpose was mainly as a pc monitor, did that matter?

Impressions after having the set for 24 hours

SOUND QUALITY: poor, typical of a cheap set. Even for watching the news, this set would benefit from connection to an external AVR and speakers.

PICTURE QUALITY IN 2D MODE: a bright picture typical of LCD screens. When displaying off-air digital, the TV was able to show shadow detail, and yet have plenty of brightness for high luminance parts of the picture. There are several predetermined settings for colour, and a user setting for individual control of Red Green and Blue. The default colour setting gave very rich colours and for my taste over-prominent orange. The default sharpness setting was quite sharp; something softer would suit my taste.

USB STICK MEDIA READING CAPACITY: not tested comprehensively but the TV was able to play various off-air recordings made with tuner cards, including MPEG-4 AVC, and it was able to play some AVI files. Able to be manually set to treat video files as side by side or top and bottom 3D. Was not able to recognise 3D still pictures with the MPO extension. (Nor able to be set to read jpg files as side by side 3D files.)

PICTURE QUALITY IN 3D MODE: in parts of demanding scenes, cross-talk (ghosting) was visible, and sometimes a little distracting. Vertical viewing angle was crucial: eyes needed to be aligned with the middle of screen or a little below. However plenty of angle available for use left and right of a central seating position. I fished out some 3D glasses my partner and I had obtained at public cinemas. After the dust was removed they performed no better and no worse than the two pairs of polarised glasses supplied with the set.

Smoothness of movement with 25i sport: very good. A vast improvement for me when watching the 2010 State of Origin. (I had never been satisfied with my Panasonic 50" VT20 plasma in that regard.)

Smoothness of 3D effect with 24p film on a Blu-ray disc: very good. I am a person very sensitive to flicker and to mistiming between Left and Right and it was a real delight for me to watch 3D with this set. I was able to stare at the picture and drink in the 3D without any feelings of flicker or strain. My partner too was very impressed with the 3D performance with a 24p Blu-ray.

Brightness: the 3D was watchable in daylight. And at night there was no need to turn off the room lights. Plenty of colour and brightness, though of course not as much as in 2D; because each eye is being shown only one half of the horizontal lines.

Interfering effects of only using half of the lines for each eye: these effects were clearly visible at a very close viewing distance (1.8m), but not particularly noticeable further back (3m). The instruction manual recommends a viewing distance between 2.5m and 5m. I generally prefer close range viewing and about 2.0m was to my taste, and I could see some artifacts.

Overall assessment

For the purpose of an aid to editing 3D home videos this display will be very useful. I'll be able to reduce high contrast parts of some scenes to reduce the cross-talk demands for later viewing by other family members with 3D displays.

It'd be quite ok too as a moderate quality set for off air TV, or for 2D Blu-ray, if used in conjunction with an AVR and speakers.

As a somewhat unexpected bonus, this cheap little set is likely to be the display of choice in my household for watching 3D movies. The lack of flicker and the smoothness of movement are impressive, as is the level of brightness. And if guests want to see some 3D material, there are plenty of glasses to hand around (acquired for $2 or $3 each when attending 3D screenings at public cinemas).

My main concern at the moment with this passive technology is the level of cross-talk. In evaluating any of the new passive sets coming onto the market, this will be something to take an interest in. (I assume that the limitation is not with the effectiveness of the passive glasses themselves.)

I have no idea how reliable this set will prove to be. It is a budget range set and there may have been some corners cut in its design and manufacture that will cause me problems further down the track.  At this point however it appears to be performing quite adequately, and in 3D mode is arguably better than my Panasonic set.

I have not seen any detailed reviews on the net of this SONIQ model.

Firmware update

I found that a firmware update available on the SONIQ site was handy for 3D side by side videos and stills, when using a pc connected via HDMI. See http://www.soniq.com...136/task,topic/  It took little time to install.

Edited by MLXXX, 04 March 2012 - 09:27 PM.

[MLXXX]

This is from another thread in this part of the forum:

MLXXX, on 20 March 2012 - 01:52 AM, said:

...
Testing

On the weekend I did some testing with Avatar 3D, comparing a Panasonic 50" plasma (VT-20) and shutter glasses with a 42" LED display (a Soniq L42D11A) and passive glasses. [I don't normally rip Blu-rays, but I ripped the main m2ts file for the purpose of testing. I was then able to play the movie on two pcs running the same player software into ATI graphics cards that created 24p frame-packed Full HD 3D at the HDMI socket. Compared with using a standalone BD player the separation between the Left and Right images was sometimes sightly less (I will look into that further when I get the time) but the visible detail was just as good.]

With this setup I was able to pause the movie at various stages so that both displays were showing the same frame (or very near to the same frame). I could then inspect the frame in detail either with the shutter glasses for the 50" display, or the passive glasses for the 42" display. The Panasonic is quite dark when playing Avatar in 3D and I set its picture to "dynamic" to help overcome that. The Soniq needed no help with brightness in 3D mode (though it's my practice to run the Soniq at somewhat reduced colour and much reduced sharpness boosting compared with its default video settings).

I studied about 6 frames in all, choosing frames that showed detail. On both screens, the video frames looked soft close to the screen. At close quarters, the passive screen had a rougher look vertically, with the missing horizontal lines visible. The plasma screen of course showed no missing lines. It was a more professional looking picture, but there was no actual extra detail that I could see.

Similarly with the video running, the passive screen although betraying a 'raster' at close viewing distances was no less "legible" for small details than the plasma screen.

The Soniq is a very cheap set and by default (before adjustment) had over prominent orange colours, but it performed very well in this test. No flickering at all (unlike the flickery Panasonic, though I am more sensitive than the average person to flicker).

In a separate test it performed well with 2010 State of Origin side-by-side 3D material: smoother 3D movement than with the plasma..

My only gripe with the Soniq passive display operating in 3D was that even when sitting within the correct critical vertical angle range, ghosting was visible from time to time. Ghosting was virtually non-existent with the Panasonic, even using "dynamic" for the picture setting.

But I understand users have been pretty happy with the LG Cinema displays from a ghosting viewpoint. Is that right?

[prawns]

I got one of these TVs also - My main gripe is that the TV wont remember its aspect ratio setting once you finish watching somthing in 3D mode.

For example - I run my pc to this tv using HDMI - Stick avatar3d on and the tv will go into 3D mode  (which involves it changing the "picture quality" setting to "3D" and changing the aspect ratio to "full" setting automatically)

When the movies finished, and 3D gets switched off it changes the picture setting back to its last setting automatically (eg "user" in my case) but it does NOT reset the aspect ratio back to "just scan" ratjher it leaves it on "full" which means my windows runs off the screen (its overscanning? is the word?) Eg only half my start menu shows and none of my title bar for open maximised windows

Happens every time - quite annoying having to reset the aspect ratio every single time you finish watching 3d content


I found the standard sharpness setting to be way overdone also (anything over setting 20 starts to "white border" things badly for me - a photo on the standard setting of 50 looks ridiculously bad when compared to the same photo on <20)  Turning the sharpness down also seems to boost the colours in a major way (perhaps just because the edges are now in colour vs a white line)

All my people look like lobsters also from factory settings of 50/50/50/50. On mine I calibrated the black level to 16 (funnily enough thats brightness setting 50  on my tv which was stock anyway) but was losing alot of shadow details  - I dont know whether the lost detail was supposed to be BTB -  but to get full shadow detail on mine involves boosting the brightness to 55 from its calibrated level of 50 - but now my blacks arnt quite as black as possible (close though)

[MLXXX]

You found the default sharpness far too high, and the default colour too much orange/red, just like me! It seems the manufacturer made poor choices with the default settings.

My set is out on loan at the moment. I've leave comment on the "just scan" issue until I have the set back.

Ghosting (cross-talk) for a large group watching

Recently we had a large gathering of people watching the set and it was remarkable how good the Left  Right imaging held up even at extreme horizontal viewing angles.  No ghosting was brought on by viewing the set at these extreme angles.  Also noteworthy was how the 3D effect remained apparent even from a long viewing distance.

The thing we did find very critical was the vertical viewing angle. The middle of the screen needs to be level with, or slightly above, the viewers' eyes, or ghosting can become very distracting.

[prawns]

Ive been playing with the temperature controls a little - I noticed that the presets are different depending on the source chosen

For example - While in DTV mode (standard temerature) - Red=63,Blue=63,Green=48
While in HDMI mode (standard temperature)  - Red=73,Blue=70, Green=50

I run a digital hd tvcard in my computer also - much prefer the DTV standard temperature setting VS the HDMI standard temperature setting when watching tv shows using my computer (mind you both are still too orange for my tastes)

In the end I just set my computer to output full RGB 4:4:4 to the TV - with any videos getting automatically run through a 0-255 conversion (from video levels 16-235) and I set my temperature to a manual 50/50/50 for tweaking a bit later on (people no longer look like lobsters but green is stoo strong - I do alot of 4wding and bushland seems a bit too "highlighted" from home movies recorded in h264

Incase it might help somebody or your interested  -heres my TV's edid?/info or whatever its called


Monitor
  Model name............... MONITOR
  Manufacturer............. GKK
  Plug and Play ID......... GKK0509
  Serial number............ 1
  Manufacture date......... 2010, ISO week 30
  Filter driver............ None
  -------------------------
  EDID revision............ 1.3
  Input signal type........ Digital
  Color bit depth.......... Undefined
  Display type............. RGB color
  Screen size.............. 160 x 90 mm (7.2 in)
  Power management......... Not supported
  Extension blocs.......... 1 (CEA-EXT)
  -------------------------
  DDC/CI................... Not supported

Color characteristics
  Default color space...... Non-sRGB
  Display gamma............ 2.20
  Red chromaticity......... Rx 0.642 - Ry 0.334
  Green chromaticity....... Gx 0.292 - Gy 0.607
  Blue chromaticity........ Bx 0.146 - By 0.056
  White point (default).... Wx 0.279 - Wy 0.292
  Additional descriptors... None

Timing characteristics
  Horizontal scan range.... 26-81kHz
  Vertical scan range...... 24-75Hz
  Video bandwidth.......... 230MHz
  CVT standard............. Not supported
  GTF standard............. Not supported
  Additional descriptors... None
  Preferred timing......... Yes
  Native/preferred timing.. 1920x1080p at 60Hz (16:9)
    Modeline............... "1920x1080" 148.500 1920 2008 2052 2200 1080 1084 1089 1125 +hsync +vsync
  Detailed timing #1....... 1360x768p at 60Hz (16:9)
    Modeline............... "1360x768" 85.500 1360 1424 1536 1792 768 771 777 795 +hsync +vsync

Standard timings supported
720 x  400p at  70Hz - IBM VGA
640 x  480p at  60Hz - IBM VGA
640 x  480p at  67Hz - Apple Mac II
640 x  480p at  72Hz - VESA
640 x  480p at  75Hz - VESA
800 x  600p at  60Hz - VESA
800 x  600p at  72Hz - VESA
800 x  600p at  75Hz - VESA
832 x  624p at  75Hz - Apple Mac II
    1024 x  768p at  60Hz - VESA
    1024 x  768p at  75Hz - VESA
    1280 x 1024p at  75Hz - VESA
    1152 x  870p at  75Hz - Apple Mac II
    1280 x  800p at  60Hz - VESA STD
    1280 x  960p at  60Hz - VESA STD
    1280 x 1024p at  60Hz - VESA STD
    1440 x  900p at  60Hz - VESA STD
    1680 x 1050p at  60Hz - VESA STD
    1152 x  864p at  75Hz - VESA STD

EIA/CEA-861 Information
  Revision number.......... 3
  IT underscan............. Supported
  Basic audio.............. Supported
  YCbCr 4:4:4.............. Supported
  YCbCr 4:2:2.............. Supported
  Native formats........... 1
  Detailed timing #1....... 1280x720p at 60Hz (16:9)
    Modeline............... "1280x720" 74.250 1280 1390 1430 1650 720 725 730 750 +hsync +vsync
  Detailed timing #2....... 1280x720p at 50Hz (16:9)
    Modeline............... "1280x720" 74.250 1280 1720 1760 1980 720 725 730 750 +hsync +vsync
  Detailed timing #3....... 1920x1080i at 60Hz (16:9)
    Modeline............... "1920x1080" 74.250 1920 2008 2052 2200 1080 1084 1094 1124 interlace +hsync +vsync
  Detailed timing #4....... 1920x1080i at 50Hz (16:9)
    Modeline............... "1920x1080" 74.250 1920 2448 2492 2640 1080 1084 1094 1124 interlace +hsync +vsync
  Detailed timing #5....... 720x480p at 60Hz (16:9)
    Modeline............... "720x480" 27.000 720 736 798 858 480 489 495 525 -hsync -vsync

CE video identifiers (VICs) - timing/formats supported
720 x  480p at  60Hz - EDTV (16:9, 32:27)
    1280 x  720p at  60Hz - HDTV (16:9, 1:1)
    1920 x 1080i at  60Hz - HDTV (16:9, 1:1)
    1920 x 1080p at  60Hz - HDTV (16:9, 1:1) [Native]
720 x  576p at  50Hz - EDTV (16:9, 64:45)
    1280 x  720p at  50Hz - HDTV (16:9, 1:1)
    1920 x 1080i at  50Hz - HDTV (16:9, 1:1)
    1920 x 1080p at  50Hz - HDTV (16:9, 1:1)
    1920 x 1080p at  24Hz - HDTV (16:9, 1:1)
    1920 x 1080p at  25Hz - HDTV (16:9, 1:1)
    1920 x 1080p at  30Hz - HDTV (16:9, 1:1)
    NB: NTSC refresh rate = (Hz*1000)/1001

CE audio data (formats supported)
  LPCM    2-channel, 16/20/24 bit depths at 32/44/48 kHz

CE speaker allocation data
  Channel configuration.... 2.0
  Front left/right......... Yes
  Front LFE................ No
  Front center............. No
  Rear left/right.......... No
  Rear center.............. No
  Front left/right center.. No
  Rear left/right center... No
  Rear LFE................. No

CE vendor specific data (VSDB)
  IEEE registration number. 0x000C03
  CEC physical address..... 2.0.0.0
  Supports AI (ACP, ISRC).. Yes
  Supports 48bpp........... No
  Supports 36bpp........... Yes
  Supports 30bpp........... Yes
  Supports YCbCr 4:4:4..... Yes
  Supports dual-link DVI... No
  Maximum TMDS clock....... 225MHz
  Audio/video latency (p).. n/a
  Audio/video latency (i).. n/a
  HDMI video capabilities.. Yes
  EDID screen size......... No additional info
  3D structures supported.. Frame packing, Top-and-bottom, Side-by-side w. horizontal sub-sampling
  3D formats supported..... Mandatory formats plus all primary VICs
720 x  480p at  60Hz - EDTV (16:9, 32:27)
    1920 x 1080i at  60Hz - HDTV (16:9, 1:1)
    1920 x 1080p at  60Hz - HDTV (16:9, 1:1) [Native]
720 x  576p at  50Hz - EDTV (16:9, 64:45)
    1920 x 1080p at  24Hz - HDTV (16:9, 1:1)
    NB: NTSC refresh rate = (Hz*1000)/1001
  Data payload............. 030C002000B82D20A0020141

Report information
  Date generated........... 17/07/2012
  Software revision........ 2.60.0.972
  Data source.............. Real-time 0x0041
  Operating system......... 6.1.7600.2

[IanD]

Interesting reviews.

I would dearly like to watch 3D passive and have considered the current Panasonic 42ET5A and LG 42LM6410, but been swayed by the negative reviews of colour, uniformity or motion handling combined with the still high prices.

The Soniq you have reviewed is still available as a refurb for 60% the price of the big guns and I was wondering if it was worthy of consideration.

The main things I am unsure about is screen reflectivity, calibration and 24p motion handling.

Has anyone performed a full calibration on the Soniq with the resulting gamma, white balance and CIE diagrams?

24p on an LCD usually results in jitter on panning objects because they move fairly large distances between each frame.  This is usually attenuated by performing frame interpolation, however I have seen no mention of this with the Soniq.  Alternatively, the backlight can be blinked, similar to the shutter used at the cinema to reduce this motion jitter.  I have seen no mention of either of these mechanisms used with the Soniq in the manual, but perhaps they are incorporated and permanently turned on.

I guess I am wanting to experience 3D, yet at the same time not blow a lot of money in case it turns out to be disappointing.  Active 3D will be no good, because I am sensitive to plasma flicker and rainbow effect.

Following the reviews of LG, it sounds like the visual quality has been deteriorating with previous years LW series being better than the recent LM series and LG focusing more on "smarts" than on the core display.  I fear that this will continue until LG have a great Android media player with poor display.  There aren't many options for good performing, passive 3D at reasonable prices at the moment.

[MLXXX]

IanD, on 15 March 2013 - 11:31 AM, said:

Has anyone performed a full calibration on the Soniq with the resulting gamma, white balance and CIE diagrams?

I haven't.

On my set:

User menu controls are for colour temperature (Red Green and Blue gain are separately adjustable), contrast, brightness, and "colour" (saturation). I am not aware of service menu access codes.

Subjectively, reds in the picture look too orange, which I have corrected to some extent by reducing red in the colour temperature setting.  Dull reds now look reasonable but bright reds still look orange.

Subjectively, contrast is very good, making for a detailed looking picture.  Bright whites look bright and white! However the black level is quite poor, and not entirely uniform across the screen. This is distracting when the screen is supposed to fade to black, or in dark scenes in movies.

Quote

24p on an LCD usually results in jitter on panning objects because they move fairly large distances between each frame.  This is usually attenuated by performing frame interpolation, however I have seen no mention of this with the Soniq.  Alternatively, the backlight can be blinked, similar to the shutter used at the cinema to reduce this motion jitter.  I have seen no mention of either of these mechanisms used with the Soniq in the manual, but perhaps they are incorporated and permanently turned on.

There is indeed jitter during 24p panning with my 42" Soniq. There is no apparent backlight blinking to mask the jitter.

Quote

I guess I am wanting to experience 3D, yet at the same time not blow a lot of money in case it turns out to be disappointing.  Active 3D will be no good, because I am sensitive to plasma flicker and rainbow effect.

Following the reviews of LG, it sounds like the visual quality has been deteriorating with previous years LW series being better than the recent LM series and LG focusing more on "smarts" than on the core display.  I fear that this will continue until LG have a great Android media player with poor display.

If cost is a strong factor in the purchase decision, LG may still be a contender. I like to go to showrooms and critically evaluate PQ for myself. There is often compromise involved, and it is a question of achieving an acceptable compromise.

Yes I think Plasma 3D is to be avoided if one is sensitive to flicker. Also, for some people, active glasses compromise motion integrity, because of the timing difference between Left and Right. I personally find passive glasses LED 3D "relaxing" and "real" compared with active glasses plasma. And I've seen this reported on on-line forums. However, there is the drawback of seeing only the odd lines through the Left lens and even through the Right lens. Unless seated well away from the set, this gives the picture a venetian blind texture, albeit that this does not seem to have much if any impact on visible vertical resolution with a Blu-ray movie; as these are normally authored to avoid pixel sharp boundaries in the image content.

Quote

There aren't many options for good performing, passive 3D at reasonable prices at the moment.

I see that this weekend JB Hi Fi have a 55" LED 3D (the LG 55LM6410) for $1102. There is a Hisense 55" LED model for only $761 but it uses active glasses [and is not considered a leading brand].



Other drawbacks of the Soniq L42D11A worth mentioning are:

• Vertical viewing angle (at least for my particular set) is very critical to reduce ghosting
  
• The speaker sound is abysmal, the set definitely needs to be connected to an AVR; and last but not least:
  
• 42" is a small screen size for a 3D TV!

Edited by MLXXX, 19 April 2013 - 04:54 AM.

[IanD]

Thanks for the additional information MLXXX.

JB HiFi are having a 15% off sale this weekend, so I will likely get the LG 42LM6410.  They haven't reduced the price on the Soniq, so it is not as attractive given its much more limited settings (although I think I prefer the CCFL backlight since it is what I have in my current excellent Sony 42EX500).

I would like a much larger TV, however my impression is that the slim frames of current TVs are not as stable and result in a greater tendency to non-uniformity across the screen especially for larger sizes, hence the 42" might be less sensitive to distortion.  I also think 3D might be something of a gimmick, so do not want to spend a lot to try it out.  42" is fine at the moment and I can move closer if required to visually increase field of view, but since passive 3D alternates polarising strips, I think too much closer (or a larger screen size) might make them visible.

It's interesting you mention the orange hue to reds as the LG LM670 (UK version of LM6700) is also supposed to have a similar issue and I suspect the entire LM6xxx range as it is likely based on the same 60Hz panel.