75 replies to this topic

[Owen]

:), on 19 February 2012 - 07:27 AM, said:

re the x30 if I bought one, I would be getting it calibrated. re the x3 before out of box needed calibration to my eyes.. And many do calibrate and also run a external scaler to have the isf capability to fully calibrate it. its also the reason some bought the x7 and looking at the x70 for full ISF calibration the x30 doesnt have,

Out of box the JVC is not setup to be accurate like most projectors, with the correct settings selected its close enough that I did not notice any colour issue and all my other display are calibrated. After calibration it did not look much different.
From the tests I have seen the Epson is no better and has the same need for calibration. The brighter modes on the Epson are way way off, just like other projectors.
The X30 does not have a CMS but the Standard preset is so close to the Rec709 standard that its a non issue, after gray scale and gamma are adjusted via the projectors controls I defy anyone to see any problems with colour.

[Owen]

:), on 19 February 2012 - 07:54 AM, said:

while these ambient light rejecting screens do exist. like their benefits they also do have draw backs.

I am not aware of any draw backs to the Supernova screen, it has no hot spot, no texture and perfect colour accuracy.

The Black Diamond is prone to sparkles when viewed at relatively close distances, that's an issue for me so I am only interested in the Supernova or possibly the Draper ReAct II

[Owen]

Crist, on 19 February 2012 - 08:21 AM, said:

I was ready to pull the trigger on one of these but didn't beause they don't perform as  demonstrated if  most of your ambient light is coming from the sides of the screen rather from the front. It was pointed out that the demos with the fluoros on were with the lights turned on at the front of the screen. Lights were turned off on the left and right side of the screen.To add they are not cheap.

Its no secret that these screens dont block light from the sides well, if they did horizontal viewing angles would be very limited. They do however block light going to or coming from vertical angles very well which is very important if you have a white ceiling and pale coloured floor.

The demonstration clearly show that its possible to light a room without destroying the projected image, something that is not possible with a white screen.

Edited by Owen, 19 February 2012 - 09:06 AM.

[Htpc-online]

Crist, on 19 February 2012 - 08:21 AM, said:

I was ready to pull the trigger on one of these but didn't beause they don't perform as  demonstrated if  most of your ambient light is coming from the sides of the screen rather from the front. It was pointed out that the demos with the fluoros on were with the lights turned on at the front of the screen. Lights were turned off on the left and right side of the screen.To add they are not cheap.

The demo Owen posted was very impressive.. So your saying if the lighting is coming from the sides of the room or the back wall, you still have ambient light reflections and the screen doesn't have the desired effect like it did in the demo?

[:)]

Owen, on 19 February 2012 - 08:57 AM, said:

I am not aware of any draw backs to the Supernova screen, it has no hot spot, no texture and perfect colour accuracy.

The Black Diamond is prone to sparkles when viewed at relatively close distances, that's an issue for me so I am only interested in the Supernova or possibly the Draper ReAct II

I think crist answered aove and you yourself have answered question below,

Owen, on 19 February 2012 - 09:04 AM, said:

Its no secret that these screens dont block light from the sides well, if they did horizontal viewing angles would be very limited. They do however block light going to or coming from vertical angles very well which is very important if you have a white ceiling and pale coloured floor.

The demonstration clearly show that its possible to light a room without destroying the projected image, something that is not possible with a white screen.

re black diamond as you say its draw backs are pretty well known, here is a quite from an owner

Quote

Hi Locksley, I was wondering if you could answer a few questions about your Supernova screen. It is very hard to find anybody who has this screen and can give a good review so any information would be great. I currently own a 92" Black Diamond 0.8 screen and as far as ambient light rejection it's great. Some of the limitations are Sparkles, a hot spot, and the off angle viewing is awful, you can move over just one seat and see a difference. My question to you is how does the supernova hold up in these areas. Thank you for any information.

supernova does address in some ways, but as suggested it really only covers for reflections off floor and ceiling ala where people havent painted their ceilings black or have dark carpets as do in bat caves. but still that doesnt make up for your typical white walls and leakage around windows with less than perfect 100% block out most people have in non dedicated rooms.

owen if you are serious about supernova screens check out the epic. it does weigh 300lbs apparently though !

in anycase not to side track this thread suggest taking ambient light screen discussion to its relevant thread.

[:)]

Owen, on 19 February 2012 - 08:50 AM, said:

Out of box the JVC is not setup to be accurate like most projectors, with the correct settings selected its close enough that I did not notice any colour issue and all my other display are calibrated. After calibration it did not look much different.
From the tests I have seen the Epson is no better and has the same need for calibration. The brighter modes on the Epson are way way off, just like other projectors.
The X30 does not have a CMS but the Standard preset is so close to the Rec709 standard that its a non issue, after gray scale and gamma are adjusted via the projectors controls I defy anyone to see any problems with colour.

I think we will agree to dissagree on out of box performance of these owen, otherwise I know like some other threads gone by you still be arguing about it 22 pages later !

[jliang70]

:), on 19 February 2012 - 07:27 AM, said:

not correct on the warranty. I actually owned the previous flagship epson 5500 and current 9000. the warranty you are getting muddled in your head. Its something I not only confirmed with epson but also retailer and service centre not only for the previous model but also the current. and the fine print is actually quite clear, but I checked anyway.

http://www.epson.com...jector_3Y3Y.asp

the projector without lamp is warranted for 3 years. the lamp supplied with the projector is warranted for 3 years. if you buy a lamp separate to the projector it is warranted to 12 months or 750 hours which ever comes first.

re the x30 if I bought one, I would be getting it calibrated. re the x3 before out of box needed calibration to my eyes.. And many do calibrate and also run a external scaler to have the isf capability to fully calibrate it. its also the reason some bought the x7 and looking at the x70 for full ISF calibration the x30 doesnt have,

OK, I was re-read the warranty term I was wrong.  But according to all the review I have seen on x30 and I have x3 the default setting is very accurate. I have calibrate x3 with/without external scaler ( I have 3D mini),  X3 out of box can be calibrated with a few clicks in the usual greyscale control settings ( like rgb gain/bias)  to bring the colour temperature in line with 6500K, gamma is easily adjusted to 2.2 and colour even without the cms is pretty good.  The reason some bought x7 was because of its implementation of cms and better contrast.  A lot of potential x7 buyers also went with Lumagen mini 3D and x3 instead of x7 because Lumagen's implementation of cms is superior than x7 and not as buggy as x7.  Many feel the overall PQ of x3 and lumagen is superior than x7 and also the combo is cheaper than x7.  X30 and x70 is different because of e-shift feature on x70.

[:)]

ken s, on 18 February 2012 - 01:00 PM, said:

Hi Al , yes a new projector appeals to me more and from all accounts the 9000 in eco etc might suit the bill .....l'm coming from a Sony HS60 ( which has been bulletproof, just dimmish )
Used JVC's are hard to come by when your after one lol , but i'm not in a great rush ( so long as it's next week ! )

Seriously , the old Sony will suffice until need be, just keen to upgrade soon to 1080p ...the other good thing with the 9000 is the wireless HDMI , as my wall that the original HDMI runs up is located under a second story , so impossible to access for a straight pull up and l'd hate to try and pull though a new cable and lose it halfway ( l know the holes are'nt very big as l ran it 6 years ago )

The 9000 looking pretty good atm ( unless a nice higher end JVC comes about at the right price )

Cheers Ken

ken I missed this post of yours, from previous sony owners would be worth comparing notes with both cwt and crist who moved from sony to the epson. the sonys have always had a respect for. and would be worth investigating what else in store from sony thats comparable. perhaps something to look out for anyways just as another option to throw in the mix re higher end jvc's there is the x70 that sits above the x30.

[jliang70]

:), on 19 February 2012 - 09:26 AM, said:

I think we will agree to dissagree on out of box performance of these owen, otherwise I know like some other threads gone by you still be arguing about it 22 pages later !

Al, have you actually measured or calibrate a x3 or x30 ?  If you haven't you really don't have much to say regarding the out of box performance of x3. Tom Hoffman who developed Chromapure software actually said in his post in AVS it took him 20 minutes to fully calibrate a x3 and he said the default cinema setting in x3 was pretty much spot on.

[:)]

jliang70, on 19 February 2012 - 10:12 AM, said:

Al, have you actually measured or calibrate a x3 or x30 ?  If you haven't you really don't have much to say regarding the out of box performance of x3. Tom Hoffman who developed Chromapure software actually said in his post in AVS it took him 20 minutes to fully calibrate a x3 and he said the default cinema setting in x3 was pretty much spot on.

Have seen the out of box performance of the jvc x3. Have seen with my own eyes the x3 calibrated and uncalibrated. That's all I need to see. I have also seen an x30 calibrated. The jvc guy at the Melbourne show demoing the jvc x30 recommended to factor in a calibration.

And i would suggest as both you and Owen have done with your jvc x3's for any one considering to factor in a calibration. If they get it and decide not something to bother with that's their bonus.

Again as per Owen am happy to agree to disagree with you on this matter no wish to argue this to death.

[jmone]

I just demoed the X30 and X90 in dedicated HT showrooms (using http://www.blu-ray.c...-Blu-ray/13943/ which I thought was an odd choice and to which I am also unfamilliar).  The X30 was projecting onto a JP Morgan 100" fixed screen and it gave the best overall comparison to what I could expect at home.  My impressions where:
1) colour and bright scenes were pleasing and looked pretty good
2) blacks were crushed, and suffered from "back crawl" (Given Owen's comments I was surprised at this but to be fair I've never seen the disk before either so it could be an issue with the source)
3) some ambient light was OK in the room (had white walls but dark ceiling) but oddly they had some halogens mounted over the screen that washed out the picture.
4) the X90 "may" have been better with blacks but it was in a different room with an older "grey hawk" screen so it was hard to be objective

Summary: I think I need to "relax" my expectations on the picture quality and on the versatility for these units.  So....I figure at night, put up the screen, power up the PJ, open a good bottle of red and just kick back and enjoy some mindless block busters.....as if I start comparing it with the daytime performance of the Kuro I'm just going to be disappointed, regardless of what I'm going to be able to do.

[MRCRIST]

When  I saw the X3 demoed last year the picture looked impressive. I think that that one was calibrated by the hifi store. The display room although not a complete batcave was pretty close to one ie black walls dark ceiling but the entrance was not a solid wall but a dark curtain which allowed some light to sneak in where it was drawn together.

I savoured the moment thinking if I was going to get a new PJ this would be my reference point however the lumen output of the JVC would be an issue in the less than ideal setting of my family room. The Epson light cannon solved it all for me. I get good blacks and the image just pops.

Edited by Crist, 19 February 2012 - 01:00 PM.

[MRCRIST]

jmone, on 19 February 2012 - 12:50 PM, said:

Summary: I think I need to "relax" my expectations on the picture quality and on the versatility for these units.  So....I figure at night, put up the screen, power up the PJ, open a good bottle of red and just kick back and enjoy some mindless block busters.....as if I start comparing it with the daytime performance of the Kuro I'm just going to be disappointed, regardless of what I'm going to be able to do.

After a few glasses of red you couldn't care less anyway

[:)]

jmone, great to see have started checking out for yourself. best thing can do to get feel for things to help your decision.

crist similar story here, the x3 have seen do a great job calibrated and in a dedicated room setting. for me either the jvc or the previous epson was the toss up. but yeah in my non dedicated room setting was very happy with my choice in the epson and even happier with the 9000 now. but yeah not to say the jvc not an excellent choice in the right conditions. people will choose whats best for their needs. and plenty of people very happy with either.

Personally I think we're extremely lucky to be able to buy these kind of pjs for the kind of money they go for.

ps another not to be forgotted in this mix is the pana 7000. though shares much with the epson. has some points of differentiation that will make it the right choice for some as well

[jmone]

Owen, Al? & Crist - May I ask what screens you gents are currently using and any comments?

Edited by jmone, 19 February 2012 - 01:29 PM.

[:)]

jmone, on 19 February 2012 - 01:28 PM, said:

Owen, Al? & Crist - May I ask what screens you gents are currently using and any comments?

jmone as per my post below,

:), on 16 February 2012 - 08:07 PM, said:

its just a box you mount to the celing and it lowers down in front of the plasma.

I use the screen technics electricinema
http://www.screentec...roduct.php?v=12

the lp morgan rondo is a very good screen as well
http://www.lpmorgan....do_product.html

both screens are australian made, the chinese ones are about half the price. ebay chinese ones cheaper and half the price again ! .

you can hook up a trigger cable from the screen to the pj, so minute you switch it on the screen comes down the same time

this is my setup with projection screen out the way




this is how looks with screen lowered

[Owen]

Htpc-online, on 19 February 2012 - 09:19 AM, said:

The demo Owen posted was very impressive.. So your saying if the lighting is coming from the sides of the room or the back wall, you still have ambient light reflections and the screen doesn't have the desired effect like it did in the demo?

Yes the screens do not reject light from the direction of the projector or from the sides for obvious reasons. In a normal room with white ceiling and lights off the ceiling is the major problem, the brightly illuminated ceiling not only illuminates the screen directly but it lights up the whole room alarmingly. This is not only distracting to the viewer but all that light gets bounced around an reflects onto the screen from all angles.
So just addressing the ceiling alone makes a huge difference to on screen contrast.

I view in complete darkness and have no interest in viewing with lights on, but because I have no desire to paint the ceiling black and install black floor covering these screens should provide very obvious advantages. Others will have their own requirements and will have to make their own assessment as to the suitability of these screens.

[Owen]

jmone, on 19 February 2012 - 12:50 PM, said:

I just demoed the X30 and X90 in dedicated HT showrooms (using http://www.blu-ray.c...-Blu-ray/13943/ which I thought was an odd choice and to which I am also unfamilliar). The X30 was projecting onto a JP Morgan 100" fixed screen and it gave the best overall comparison to what I could expect at home. My impressions where: 1) colour and bright scenes were pleasing and looked pretty good 2) blacks were crushed, and suffered from "back crawl" (Given Owen's comments I was surprised at this but to be fair I've never seen the disk before either so it could be an issue with the source) 3)

JVC like to accentuate their good blacks but setting gamma high at low levels which makes shadows dark, if the viewing environment is not completely dark with zero light sources this comes across as black crush.
Gamma is however fully adjustable and you can get whatever look you want, it only takes a few minutes to bump up the lower end of the gamma curve.
As for "back crawl" I'm not sure what that is. The JVC DILA LCoS system uses pulse width modulated drive much like a Plasma or DLP and if you get right up close to the screen so you can see the individual pixels you can see this in action, however at any usable viewing distance its invisible.
It would be a good idea to take along a Bluray disk that you know well when evaluating performance.

jmone, on 19 February 2012 - 12:50 PM, said:

some ambient light was OK in the room (had white walls but dark ceiling) but oddly they had some halogens mounted over the screen that washed out the picture. 4) the X90 "may" have been better with blacks but it was in a different room with an older "grey hawk" screen so it was hard to be objective Summary: I think I need to "relax" my expectations on the picture quality and on the versatility for these units. So....I figure at night, put up the screen, power up the PJ, open a good bottle of red and just kick back and enjoy some mindless block busters.....as if I start comparing it with the daytime performance of the Kuro I'm just going to be disappointed, regardless of what I'm going to be able to do.

If there was any light in the room the picture will be compromised and you wont see any difference in contrast/blacks between the X30 and much more expensive X90. Even one halogen with completely destroy image contrast with a white screen, that's why screen choice is absolutely vital.
The high gain Supernova and Black Diamond screens will give you an image that is over twice as bright as a normal white screen while at the same time maintaining much better blacks which is great for no dark viewing environments. With such a screen the Epson could proved a brighter image than the Kuro Plasma on a 100" screen, but for viewing in the dark a high gain screen and bright projector are an impediment as black level suffers. It's in the dark where the JVC's excel due to vastly superior contrast.

As far as I am concerned blacks and contrast with the X3 are only just good enough, anything less is just not acceptable for my use. The next projector I buy will have to be a lot better in that department.

A projector does not replace a TV for daytime or lights on viewing and will always look disappointing in a non dark environment, use a Plasma for such viewing. However at night with all lights off I would be very surprised if you did not find a good projector and suitable screen unbeatable.

Edited by Owen, 19 February 2012 - 03:05 PM.

[MRCRIST]

jmone, on 19 February 2012 - 01:28 PM, said:

Owen, Al? & Crist - May I ask what screens you gents are currently using and any comments?

I now have a Selby 110" Deluxe motorised screen. Surprised just how good  it performs for the price. Was going to get a screen technics screen but the Master and Commander told me to pull the reigns on spending.    Wow I shudder to think the outcome if she checked the bank balance if I purchased a black diamond  or DNP  . screen.
The ambient light from the kitchen which is  one side of the screen saved me

Edited by Crist, 19 February 2012 - 03:19 PM.

[Owen]

jmone, on 19 February 2012 - 01:28 PM, said:

Owen, Al? & Crist - May I ask what screens you gents are currently using and any comments?

I am currently using a cheap Chinese 100" screen with a gain of about 1.0, the main issue I have with it is the screen surface is not perfectelly smooth, at my 3 metre viewing distance I can see the screen texture on some content. OZ Theater Screens sent me a sample of the EVO 1.3 material and it looks very vice but because of my white ceiling and the problems it causes I am not keen on replacing a white screen with another white screen.

[Owen]

:), on 19 February 2012 - 09:25 AM, said:

I think crist answered aove and you yourself have answered question below,

All front projection screens are affected by side lighting, its an inherent limitation of front projection not a disadvantage of one screen type.

:), on 19 February 2012 - 09:25 AM, said:

supernova does address in some ways, but as suggested it really only covers for reflections off floor and ceiling ala where people havent painted their ceilings black or have dark carpets as do in bat caves. but still that doesnt make up for your typical white walls and leakage around windows with less than perfect 100% block out most people have in non dedicated rooms.

For people without black painted bat caves ceiling and floor reflections are typically 75% of the problem, addressing that has to at least double contrast in bright scenes and keep the whole room much darker for better immersion. It does not matter how much money you spend on a projector the screen is a serious limitation so spending money on a good one seems worthwhile to me.

Another advantage of these screens is no need to mask for different aspect ratios if you have a high contrast projector.

Edited by Owen, 19 February 2012 - 03:39 PM.

[MRCRIST]

Owen, on 19 February 2012 - 03:14 PM, said:

I am currently using a cheap Chinese 100" screen with a gain of about 1.0, the main issue I have with it is the screen surface is not perfectelly smooth, at my 3 metre viewing distance I can see the screen texture on some content. OZ Theater Screens sent me a sample of the EVO 1.3 material and it looks very vice but because of my white ceiling and the problems it causes I am not keen on replacing a white screen with another white screen.

My previous Chinese imported screen displayed that texture you are referring to.
My current screen is void to my tired old eyes of the same.
The price of the DNP or Black Diamond is a serious barrier to entry for most people especially a motorised version which would suit the typical environment it is designed for.

[Owen]

Crist, on 19 February 2012 - 03:11 PM, said:

The ambient light from the kitchen which is  one side of the screen saved me

How did you convince the wife to let you install black carpet and paints the ceiling black?  If you didn't the light from the kitchen is only part of the problem.

I have no light sources when viewing other than the screen and the light reflected of the white ceiling is enough to read a book by on bright scenes, its like someone turned on a light and is a major problem.

[Owen]

Crist, on 19 February 2012 - 08:08 PM, said:

My previous Chinese imported screen displayed that texture you are referring to.
My current screen is void to my tired old eyes of the same.
The price of the DNP or Black Diamond is a serious barrier to entry for most people especially a motorised version which would suit the typical environment it is designed for.

Yes they are relatively expensive but so are anamorphic lenses and high end white screens. For people with non ideal viewing environments a good screen provides a large performance improvement that cant be gained any other way.
A $4000 projector and a $3000 high tech screen easily outperforms a $10,000 projector and a standard white screen in such an environment so the screen is actually good value, especially compared to an A-lens.

[jmone]

Thanks gents, I like both Owen's summation of the technical and value concept yet as I'm dipping my toe into PJ land for the first time (and not sure how the WAF will go) feel the the cost position that Crist points out.....

Anyway! I'm also going to follow the same path as all of you and start with what should be a good value white screen and take it from there as I've just purchased Stevie.B's 100" 16:9 Majestic screen http://www.dtvforum....showtopic=99770 !