1363 replies to this topic

[Quark]

Sounds like you have a little chromatic aberration.

You can, if you like, see if it goes if you don't use any horizontal lens shift.  If it does, then consider whether you're able to mount the projector or screen in a way where you don't have any horizontal lens shift.

CA is quite common on recent projectors that are not high end ($20+K) - in making them more affordable manufacturers have made some compromises.  If it's only in the bottom right corner, it is quite minor and as you've noticed, not something that you see in ordinary viewing.  I wouldn't sweat it.  If you get another one it's likely to be worse.

[jmone]

OK - here are the close ups once I had reset my attempt to pixel correct!

1) Top Left:  Looks OK to the eye (one white line)


2) Bottom Right: Looks like it is not quite focused to the eye and as you can see the colours are out + the purple fringe

Edited by jmone, 27 February 2012 - 04:47 PM.

[:)]

whats it actually look like from viewing position ? thats probably the important thing

[jmone]

Forgetting the finer points - here is my personally summary of how the PJ is going down in the household (coming from the Pio 608a).
- 2 x Kids = .  They think it is "awesome" and with comments of "quality was not as bad as he thought it would be", "I'm used to the size now and the TV looks small"
- Spouse = , she things it is ridiculous and the fad will not last

For myself, I keep having to remember not to compare it to the Pio but it is hard not to.  The obvious thing is the Size.  It really does provide a much better viewing environment at this scale and while SD material certainly looks soft, good quality BD stuff fills the screen nicely and gives you much more of that HT experience.  This works well for us as we remove the screen during the day (I'll post pics later of this setup) and just use it at night.  The PJ certainly can not cope with daytime viewing in our setup and I appreciate Owens point about reflected light from the ceiling washing out the screen as well.  This is really only noticeable on the lack of details in the Blacks (dark greys) but colours look great.  The kids seem to like "living room" for the colour mode but to me this blows out the whites but is not as garish as Vivid.  They were not so keen on the more muted "Natural" or "THX" mode.  Interestingly they were OK with Eco over Normal for light output.

The fan noise does not worry me (even on Normal mode) with the spouse only noticing it once the movie had stopped.  The Iris does make some noise when in use but we have it off anyway.

I'm really not sure what to make of 3-D as the only experience to date was the 3D Foxtel Sports channel and it really was gimmicky.

EDIT: Forgot to mention that the wireless HDMI works perfectly.  I do notice that the PJ is "slow" in resyncing when you do a refresh rate change (I do this automatically based on the FPS of the media being played from the HTPC using J.River Media Center).

EDIT2:  The 100" screen size at 2.6m veiwing distance is about right for us.  It seems to provide a nice wide viewing angle and while you could go larger I can make out the pixel structure around 2m.

Anyway, my 2cents worth.

Thanks
Nathan

Summary:  You get a lot of bang for your buck and it really makes a 60” TV look small!
(wishing for a 100" Pio Plasma for $10K for Christmas!)

Edited by jmone, 27 February 2012 - 06:03 PM.

[jmone]

:), on 27 February 2012 - 04:54 PM, said:

whats it actually look like from viewing position ? thats probably the important thing

Fine - just a bit soft in focus on the bottom right (if you have a ticker running etc). Like all these "test patterns" they just exaggerate issues in the users mind....and like many of the OCD users, I'm more than happy to tinker with stuff to get an "improvement" even if it is questionable my old eyes can resolve the difference.  So based on the pics above is it worth playing with Pixel (or other adjustments) as I will not be able to move the offset location of the PJ at this stage?

[Quark]

The fringing on the horizontal lines in the first pic is a little chromatic aberration.  The vertical lines look like the picture is simply resolving the RGB subpixels - is there any difference elsewhere on the screen?

As :  ) mentioned, the appearance from the viewing position is the important issue - particularly for normal viewing material.

[jmone]

As mentioned, it is perfectly fine to my eyes when veiwing movies with only some evident focus softness in that bottom corner on text, though I'm still open to any tweaks that pixel shift etc may give.  I guess I'm still used to the perfect alignment and crispness that comes with a 60" plasma and I know I will never achevie it anyway with a PJ at 100".

[liveonimpulse]

well i rang epson this morning and was advised to take the projector to a service centre in brisbane so will let you guys know how i go with that

I had 110 hours on it. Tried everything included power off, leaving it disconnected overnight, hot and cold temperature start, manually opening the lens cover etc etc

Googling the issues it seems that the projector is unable to test the iris on boot up. I had my iris speed set up to maximum. When the projector starts up it sounds like it is trying to focus the lens and then it fails. The cover in front of the lens never gets a chance to open up.

[Owen]

jmone, on 27 February 2012 - 04:45 PM, said:

OK - here are the close ups once I had reset my attempt to pixel correct!

1) Top Left:  Looks OK to the eye (one white line)


2) Bottom Right: Looks like it is not quite focused to the eye and as you can see the colours are out + the purple fringe

Does the image look as soft as the pictures indicate, they are very defocused and corner convergence is rather ordinary.

A 100" Plasma would look very harsh and digital at 2.6 metres, the pixel structure and poor fill factor would be quite noticeable and the overall image not in the same league as a good projector.

Edited by Owen, 27 February 2012 - 08:22 PM.

[jmone]

Owen, on 27 February 2012 - 08:19 PM, said:

Does the image look as soft as the pictures indicate, they are very defocused and corner convergence is rather ordinary.

Being a PJ newbie I have no comparable experience to be able to comment (hence posting the pics) on other similar 100" PJ. Happy to provide other pics etc but was hopping for feedback from others who know what to look for or what tweaks to try

[Owen]

If the pixels look as blurred as in your photo either the lens is not focused properly of is not very good.

If the Epson has the ability to adjust convergence in the problem corner without affecting the rest of the picture, even if by cheating, you should be able to get a better result.

[oztheatre]

jmone, on 26 February 2012 - 08:45 PM, said:

I've packed it away for now, but the bottom right of the screen is where it is the most noticable on a test pattern.  There is both a Purple fringe + the four lines of the test pattern forming the square don't quite meet up cleanly like it does on the Top Left where the lines are neat and white.  I'll reset the pixel shift and see if I can take a photo (easier than trying to describe it).

I finally got my X70's convergence looking rather spot on. It has 1/16th pixel width adjustments (vertical and horizontal) and you can adjust the red and blue in each zone on screen or the entire screen at once. I spent about 3hrs going over each section for some amazing results. Finally a projector with pretty much perfect convergence. It certainly makes a difference.

I didn't know the epson had convergence adjustments.. I assume these are 1 pixel width adjustments like the entry level JVC?

[MRCRIST]

jmone, on 27 February 2012 - 05:03 PM, said:

- Spouse = , she things it is ridiculous and the fad will not last

No surprises there

[MRCRIST]

jmone, on 27 February 2012 - 04:45 PM, said:

OK - here are the close ups once I had reset my attempt to pixel correct!

1) Top Left:  Looks OK to the eye (one white line)


2) Bottom Right: Looks like it is not quite focused to the eye and as you can see the colours are out + the purple fringe

The real question is how does the pic look from your sitting positon when you are playing a high quality BR disc ie does it look vibrant and sharp?
If so why bother and stress out over with pics of outlines?

Also the portable 100" screen is it as close to perpindicular with the projector? May explain slight blur in the grid pics.

Edited by Crist, 28 February 2012 - 08:19 AM.

[MRCRIST]

Crist, on 28 February 2012 - 08:14 AM, said:

deleted

.

Edited by Crist, 28 February 2012 - 08:18 AM.

[MRCRIST]

liveonimpulse, on 27 February 2012 - 07:57 PM, said:

well i rang epson this morning and was advised to take the projector to a service centre in brisbane so will let you guys know how i go with that

I had 110 hours on it. Tried everything included power off, leaving it disconnected overnight, hot and cold temperature start, manually opening the lens cover etc etc

Googling the issues it seems that the projector is unable to test the iris on boot up. I had my iris speed set up to maximum. When the projector starts up it sounds like it is trying to focus the lens and then it fails. The cover in front of the lens never gets a chance to open up.

Best of luck mate. hope is resolved soon.

[Owen]

The X70 does not have true convergence adjustment either other than full pixel shift, it uses a pixel blur system like all the other three chip digital projectors I am aware of.
Remember, there is no way of subtracting light from the screen, if you have for example a red fringe which means the red pixels are out of alignment with green and blue, all you can do is introduce green and blue over the top of the misconverged red buy using the adjacent green and blue pixels, you cant remove red from where it should not be. This does remove the colour fringe but you have now used two pixels to do the job of one hence the blur.
The E-shift system does give you finer adjustment than a conventional 1080 projector but its not a substitute for accurate alignment-convergence of the imaging chips.

The ONLY way to adjust true convergence is the realign the chips in the light engine and thats impossible outside the factory, you either get a good one or you dont.

Having said that, convergence errors of half a pixel or less dont degrade performance, even full pixel out will be pretty much impossible to see at a normal viewing distance.

Edited by Owen, 28 February 2012 - 08:43 AM.

[johnnydelva]

on a lighter note my Star Wars 9 Disc set arrived today... yeah!!!!

[:)]

johnnydelva, on 28 February 2012 - 10:47 AM, said:

on a lighter note my Star Wars 9 Disc set arrived today... yeah!!!!

excellent ! its a nice little bonus isnt it !

how you finding your 9000 ?

mines coming upto 150 hours on the clock

[johnnydelva]

i have issues with my integra 5.9 receiver which isn't communicating with the wireless transmitter.  so i haven't had a chance to really have a go at it and am saving up for a new receiver.  Epson tech support confirmed there are issues with the integra receivers in that series.  i loaned a marantz receiver and it worked fine.  my son loves playing his xbox on it, though admits to having a sore neck... we're projecting it on to a 4.5 metre wall until we get a screen...

[oztheatre]

Owen, on 28 February 2012 - 08:41 AM, said:

The X70 does not have true convergence adjustment either other than full pixel shift, it uses a pixel blur system like all the other three chip digital projectors I am aware of.
Remember, there is no way of subtracting light from the screen, if you have for example a red fringe which means the red pixels are out of alignment with green and blue, all you can do is introduce green and blue over the top of the misconverged red buy using the adjacent green and blue pixels, you cant remove red from where it should not be. This does remove the colour fringe but you have now used two pixels to do the job of one hence the blur.
The E-shift system does give you finer adjustment than a conventional 1080 projector but its not a substitute for accurate alignment-convergence of the imaging chips.

The ONLY way to adjust true convergence is the realign the chips in the light engine and thats impossible outside the factory, you either get a good one or you dont.

Having said that, convergence errors of half a pixel or less dont degrade performance, even full pixel out will be pretty much impossible to see at a normal viewing distance.

No it has 1/16th pixel width adjustments in red and blue. (red on white grid or red on yellow grid. Blue on cyan grid or white grid) Seems the green stays stationary and the red and blue (in front and behind) can be moved incrementally until they line up with the green. Certainly no bluring here Owen. I have spent the best part of 3hrs and another hour last night going over the entire grid on screen. When you move the red or blue they come out from behind the screen and you can even see the 1/16th steps taking place. Getting them lined up is hard but worth it. The image is sharper the lines are thinner than compared to having convergence of half or a full pixel width. It also has a full pixel width adjustment which is pretty much useless, the 1/16th adjustment is perfect.

[cwt]

This is one popular projector everyone ; just received my SW boxset after an earlier email  that they had to get more into the country after running out Says something about the thx remastering effort when the 1st disc comes in at 44gb   and its not even 3d and the extras are on 3 other discs so its mostly film that benefits

[MRCRIST]

cwt, on 29 February 2012 - 04:10 PM, said:

This is one popular projector everyone ; just received my SW boxset after an earlier email  that they had to get more into the country after running out Says something about the thx remastering effort when the 1st disc comes in at 44gb   and its not even 3d and the extras are on 3 other discs so its mostly film that benefits

Enjoy CWT. Agree re PJ's popularity.

[Owen]

oztheatre, on 28 February 2012 - 01:54 PM, said:

No it has 1/16th pixel width adjustments in red and blue. (red on white grid or red on yellow grid. Blue on cyan grid or white grid) Seems the green stays stationary and the red and blue (in front and behind) can be moved incrementally until they line up with the green. Certainly no bluring here Owen. I have spent the best part of 3hrs and another hour last night going over the entire grid on screen. When you move the red or blue they come out from behind the screen and you can even see the 1/16th steps taking place. Getting them lined up is hard but worth it. The image is sharper the lines are thinner than compared to having convergence of half or a full pixel width. It also has a full pixel width adjustment which is pretty much useless, the 1/16th adjustment is perfect.

The X70 is a "fixed pixel display" just like all other digital projectors. They are called "fixed pixel" for a reason, the only way to move the pixels is to move one of the three imaging chips and doing so moves all the sub pixels on that chip. The E-shift system in the X70 creates a second set of pixels diagonally between the normal 1920x1080 grid, again this set of pixels is fixed and is not adjustable as it is a shifted copy of the normal 1920x1080 grid, move one of the imaging chips and the E-shifted pixels move as well.
The E-shift system should allow convergence correction of half a 1080 pixel (one 2160 pixel) as a line uses two E-shift pixels but not less without blur, the 1/16th 1080 adjustment uses adjoining E-shift pixels to cancel colour fringing, thats blur not convergence as you have not "converged" anything. You cant move a colour less than a singe addressable pixel and thats all there is to to it.

Try turning E-shift off and measure line width at a point where native convergence is good and where its out, then enable E-shift with your convergence adjustments applied and measure line width at the same points. I expect that with E-shift enables lines of a convergence test pattern with have softer edges (slight blur) and in areas where you have applied convergence adjustment the blur will be worse and the line wider than where convergence adjustment was not needed.

Other X70-RS55 owners report that E-shift "convergence" adjustment is no substitute for good native convergence and some have had their projectors replaced because of that.

Edited by Owen, 01 March 2012 - 08:19 AM.

[oztheatre]

Owen, on 01 March 2012 - 08:05 AM, said:

The X70 is a "fixed pixel display" just like all other digital projectors. They are called "fixed pixel" for a reason, the only way to move the pixels is to move one of the three imaging chips and doing so moves all the sub pixels on that chip. The E-shift system in the X70 creates a second set of pixels diagonally between the normal 1920x1080 grid, again this set of pixels is fixed and is not adjustable as it is a shifted copy of the normal 1920x1080 grid, move one of the imaging chips and the E-shifted pixels move as well.
The E-shift system should allow convergence correction of half a 1080 pixel (one 2160 pixel) as a line uses two E-shift pixels but not less without blur, the 1/16th 1080 adjustment uses adjoining E-shift pixels to cancel colour fringing, thats blur not convergence as you have not "converged" anything. You cant move a colour less than a singe addressable pixel and thats all there is to to it.

Try turning E-shift off and measure line width at a point where native convergence is good and where its out, then enable E-shift with your convergence adjustments applied and measure line width at the same points. I expect that with E-shift enables lines of a convergence test pattern with have softer edges (slight blur) and in areas where you have applied convergence adjustment the blur will be worse and the line wider than where convergence adjustment was not needed.

Other X70-RS55 owners report that E-shift "convergence" adjustment is no substitute for good native convergence and some have had their projectors replaced because of that.

Just let me live in my own little world ok and stop telling me the truth For me, it's a 1/16th pixel width adjustment, that's what it looks like, that's how it behaves and that's how I like it. Not many will care about the 'truth' since this projector is sensational.... movies aren't real either...

Whatever you choose to call it, it's a darn sight better than anything I've ever seen before!

Why would anyone turn off the E shift? I'll take 8 million pixels over 2 any day of the week, even if it's scaling, I could not care less.

You should be happy to know I haven't had the urge to use any lens with this machine either. I did test it out and the results were worse than lens memory zooming. Grid distortion, pin cushion etc. Once 4K is the norm, lenses will be a thing of the past, it's only natural. They were always a stepping stone until res got fine enough and PJ's bright enough.