1477 replies to this topic

[pgdownload]

wklie, on 04 March 2012 - 02:03 PM, said:

Whether this feature actually works has always depended on, and will continue to be, accuracy of broadcast CRIDs.

Agree. Although different machines might employ different smarts in handling CRIDs - for example not finishing a recording until its scheduled duration is up regardless of the CRID might be effective.

Quote

  Freeview EPG always send requests to the PVR for adding bookings.

Makes sense, as the EPG is presumably unaware of the PVRs recording capabilities.

Quote

What happens after that is also standardised.

I wouldn't have thought this would lead to improvements being proscribed, but in a weird corporate legal way, it makes sense that the Freeview Recording "algorithm" is tightly defined from start to finish. There's lots of (obvious) functionality that PVRs could provide if only the firmware guys took the time to do it. I'd have though the lack of prioritisation might be such an instance here, but I agree its quite possible it is due to Freeview compliance.

Regards

Peter Gillespie

Edited by pgdownload, 05 March 2012 - 08:00 AM.

[DrP]

Freeview PVRs must use the CRIDs when recording via 'series link' when the data is available.  There is no provision to generally ignore the status of the program in the EIT and continue recording until the nominal event duration has expired.

[wklie]

Kestrel, on 24 February 2012 - 05:45 PM, said:

When I record using the Magic TV EPG it gives the ability to manage priorities which is how it should be done, without this ability it is almost impossible to do series recordings

Perhaps some day we may see a MTV3700 firmware that adds a setting to allow users to override the default Freeview EPG compliant conflict resolution handling by prioritisation-based handling.

[prl]

DrP, on 05 March 2012 - 09:14 AM, said:

... continue recording until the nominal event duration has expired.

That would IMO be of dubious benefit anyway, since programming gets late in the first place by earlier programs exceeding their scheduled duration.

[pgdownload]

prl, on 05 March 2012 - 03:04 PM, said:

That would IMO be of dubious benefit anyway, since programming gets late in the first place by earlier programs exceeding their scheduled duration.

I'm envisaging the timer would be set by duration, not end time. So, it appears that currently Freeview timers start looking for the shows CRID 5 minutes before scheduled start time. If the show is running 10 minutes late then at the 15 minute mark the recording should start and the shows scheduled duration (say 1 hour) should mean it doesn't turn off until 1 hour has passed, regardless of the CRID.

Might still be of limited use anyway. Once you start down this road then its a whole can of worms as to what you decide should be recorded if various (3+)  timers are looking to fire around the same times. As people have mentioned unless the shows stick to scheduled times then an accurate EPG is still not a full solution. But if you want to program in some smarts like the above then it might mean 1 or 2 things get taped properly in a year that might otherwise have been missed.

But I suspect these sorts of work arounds will probably become moot as the CRID pretty much reliable. Given the alternative is manual timers (like I use) then the question simply becomes what approach will record most reliably. Manual timers are obviously static and don't catch large overruns and there's user error in setting them up. Using the CRID is subject to the broadcasters accuracy. Both approaches are possibly about tied for reliability IMO so perhaps the convenience of auto timers pushes it over the line?

Regards

Peter Gillespie

Edited by pgdownload, 05 March 2012 - 03:49 PM.

[DrP]

What if the show starts earlier than 5 minutes early?  Examples can be provided where shows have started 15 minutes and more earlier than the guide (EIT or freeview) indicate.

[prl]

IMO, the Video Programming System (VPS) was a pretty clean implementation of the function that's being talked about here. But it still has problems with time over-runs on consecutive programs. VPS had a flag for "interruption" so if the flag was used, even recording ads could be avoided.

I used VPS on a VCR in Switzerland in the 1980s. The recognition of this sort of need goes a long way back.

[DrP]

You have to keep in mind that the current system is not ultimately about viewer convenience.  Its about control of the viewers.  I said it before but its worth saying it again.  A fully functional 'freeview accurate recording system' is not in the networks interest.

7 wants you watching 7, not 9, not 10.  For this reason the scheduling 'errors' and 'overruns' will continue.  I can't honestly see the EIT data (CRIDs) for 7 appearing in 9's transmission in order to allow a PVR tuned to 9 to work out a program is starting on 7 as that allows the PVR to flexibly make better use of its tuners.  Its far preferable (from the networks point of view) to tie up a tuner on themselves than have the view see something from another channel.  The only way I see around this is for a PVR to have as many tuners as the viewer is likely to want to record programs from various networks, ie 5 or 6 and park a tuner on each network.

Nothing I have seen since the 'freeview EPG' sprang to life has gone anywhere near towards convincing me otherwise.  The CRIDs still flip flop around like a fish out of water.  The CRID timing is as variable as the wind blows.

[wklie]

pgdownload, on 05 March 2012 - 03:39 PM, said:

I'm envisaging the timer would be set by duration, not end time.

True, but that is for reference only.

pgdownload, on 05 March 2012 - 03:39 PM, said:

the recording should start and the shows scheduled duration (say 1 hour) should mean it doesn't turn off until 1 hour has passed, regardless of the CRID.

Not true.  In normal case, CRID recording stops when the EIT-present with matching CRID expires, regardless of duration.  This is how the MTV3700 and the Grundig can record overrun programmes.  MTV4000 does not support Freeview CRID recording but it does look at EIT-present to extend the recording automatically under certain conditions (not foolproof), and is less accurate than the MTV3700 CRID recording if the EIT/CRID broadcast is accurate.

[pgdownload]

wklie, on 05 March 2012 - 10:46 PM, said:

True, but that is for reference only ... Not true.  

I realise Freeview isn't implemented this way, I'm just noting one way it could be easily adjusted to improve its overall robustness.

But as I say, its probably a moot point. The vast majority of shows (esp. prime time) can be accurately caught by the current system of starting five minutes early and recording through until the CRID changes. Its not in the networks interest to start shows earlier under this system as all it achieves is people missing the start of their shows.

Ultimately the Freeview system is a voluntary group approach supported by all of the networks. Its not designed to advantage any one network. If the Freeview timer failure rate is too high then it will stop being used by most people in short order. Not too mention there is presumably something of a legal obligation to Freeview PVR makers to provide their end of the deal (ie accurate CRIDs). Essentially the networks are offering simple and reliable recording in exchange for giving up ad skip - if there's no quid then there will be no quo.

People (including me:)) say that the networks are dinosaurs and can't adapt to a new broadcasting paradigm, but it seems they're not the only ones mired in the past. Freeview might work or it might not, but I'm pretty certain its a legitimate attempt to survive the meteor that is alternative content sources

Regards

Peter Gillespie

[DrP]

The list of shows I've logged going to air in excess of 5 minutes early (compared to EIT and freeview guides) is quite extensive.  Here's just a few I've noticed while monitoring the p/f and CRID information.  It's more likely that a programme in prime time will run later than indicated, but it's not a certainty by any means.

30 Rock
Desperate Housewives
Alactraz
Dad's Army
Flashpoint
Supernatural
Happy Endings
Castle
Southland

Logging since December reveals that in order to record programming successfully (ie, in full) the following padding would be required.  The times may not show the full extent of the padding required across all programming, just what was required to grab the mixed bag of programs I use to monitor the p/f and CRIDs.

Channel, start (minutes before advertised start),  end (minutes after advertised end)
7mate, 17, 20
7TWO, 20, 39
ELEVEN, 7, 16
GEM, 15, 39
GO, 15, 19
ONE, 7, 15
SC10, 10, 17
SEVEN, 10, 24
WIN, 19, 29

Edited by DrP, 06 March 2012 - 09:05 AM.

[Wing Nut]

pgdownload, on 06 March 2012 - 08:21 AM, said:

People (including me:)) say that the networks are dinosaurs and can't adapt to a new broadcasting paradigm, but it seems they're not the only ones mired in the past. Freeview might work or it might not, but I'm pretty certain its a legitimate attempt to survive the meteor that is alternative content sources

I hope you will excuse me if I occasionally have to borrow your excellent analogy

[prl]

DrP, on 05 March 2012 - 05:47 PM, said:

You have to keep in mind that the current system is not ultimately about viewer convenience.  Its about control of the viewers.  I said it before but its worth saying it again.  A fully functional 'freeview accurate recording system' is not in the networks interest.

7 wants you watching 7, not 9, not 10.  For this reason the scheduling 'errors' and 'overruns' will continue.  ...

That's the essence of it IMO, with the addition that they want you watching the ads on their services. The ads are income; programming is mere expenditure. Hence no instant skip on Freeview.

See Broadcast programming on Wikipedia for a rundown of the techniques used to attract viewers and keep them on your channel. I'm sure you'll find a number of them appear to be in widespread use in Australia (not directed at you, Dr P; I'm sure you're well aware of these techniques).

[pgdownload]

prl, on 06 March 2012 - 10:31 AM, said:

That's the essence of it IMO, with the addition that they want you watching the ads on their services. The ads are income; programming is mere expenditure. Hence no instant skip on Freeview.

Exactly. And if Freeview PVRs don't work people will buy other models [that have ad skip ability]. Ads are an evolving science. There are lots of (really annoying) techniques networks have used to game the ratings but they are only used if they work (i.e they increase ratings). For example I doubt networks will split a season final of something like Master Chef with a new series in the middle again. Technology (PVRs) has shifted viewing power back to the viewers after a long period where the networks could rely on viewer apathy to ensure their manipulative techniques worked (and they did/do work).

No doubt the networks would like to keep all their tricks in play but if its a choice between losing some top and tail ads so that people FF (or not as many don't) through ads all through the shows or people not watching ads at all then I think the networks have made that decision. Besides the 30 second ad is becoming obsolete anyway. Embedded ads in shows (either overt or otherwise) and of course all the advertising in live sport seems where the industry is heading IMO.

Regards

Peter Gillespie

[prl]

pgdownload, on 06 March 2012 - 10:56 AM, said:

... Technology (PVRs) has shifted viewing power back to the viewers after a long period where the networks could rely on viewer apathy to ensure their manipulative techniques worked (and they did/do work).

No doubt the networks would like to keep all their tricks in play but if its a choice between losing some top and tail ads so that people FF (or not as many don't) through ads all through the shows or people not watching ads at all then I think the networks have made that decision. ...

The apathy about ads is pretty strong. According to Wikipedia, a 2008 survey in the UK found:

once a household gets a DTR, they watch 17 percent more television. 82 percent of their viewing is to normal, linear, broadcast TV without fast-forwarding the ads. In the 18 percent of TV viewing that is time-shifted (i.e. not watched as live broadcast), viewers still watch 30 percent of the ads at normal speed. Overall, the extra viewing encouraged by owning a DTR results in viewers watching 2 percent more ads at normal speed than they did before the DTR was installed.

[my emphasis]

[wklie]

DrP, on 06 March 2012 - 08:34 AM, said:

Logging since December reveals that in order to record programming successfully (ie, in full) the following padding would be required.

Thanks for the data.  If we ignore the programme start part and just concentrate on the programme end part, would the aforementioned "record until EIT-present with matching CRID expires" strategy successfully record the end in these cases?

[DrP]

If it's accurate, yes.

I can't speak for other areas, but from my monitoring of the commercial networks here the hit and miss accuracy of the present/folllowing transition makes it unreliable.  That's not saying it never works as it does, but there's too much variability not only in the timing but the CRIDs themselves.  From my logging I see that since December-ish 'American Horror Story' has had 4 different CRIDs on ELEVEN (carried by SCA) despite it so far being a one season show.  This isn't that the CRID has been inaccurate at the events appearance in the freeview guide because its replaced another event.  This is the CRID that the show has gone to air with.  I'm not referencing repeats either.

ABC and SBS get it right.

[pgdownload]

prl, on 06 March 2012 - 11:15 AM, said:

The apathy about ads is pretty strong.

Agree, and the data you mention is presumably why the networks are happy enough with FF PVRs (I suspect that if a similar survey was done in households with only PVRs with effective ad skip capabilities you'd find the numbers less to the networks liking.

But while people tolerate ads, they are definitely not apathetic to missing their favourite shows. Only takes a few times where the season finally of Dexter is cut short to build mistrust. And keeping in mind that the age old conclusion "I must have set the timer wrong" is no longer relevant - you pick the show the PVR does the rest.

Regards

Peter Gillespie

[Tassie Devil]

Catch 22 - ads fund commercial TV but the viewer wishes to avoid them.

And it is here the MAGIC is brilliant.  I consistently use "4" to skip 4 minutes with the commercial channel programs.  This might sometimes miss a bit of the beginning of the program resumption but is to be preferred to looking at the end of an ad.  "2" + the 30 second skip seems more the norm for SBS.

With a movie & most other programs (especially those shown later) on the commercial channels I add 30 minutes as a matter of course.  However, as others has posted, the start time can be unreliable, especially I find with channel 9 (WIN down here).  The +10 minutes added by the MAGIC is ample for SBS & ABC.

An odd happening last night, despite being set by EPG, "4 corners" stopped recording on the MAGIC after 10 minutes.  Fortunately it had also been recorded on the UltraPlus via satellite so was not missed.  This is the first such gilch met with the MAGIC - something introduced with that beta firmware?  This appears to be the norm with these PVRs - attempts to "improve" can introduce new errors.  I will see if this reccurs but can do little about it unless I force firmware 5.05 back in - not sure how I would do that.

John

[pgdownload]

Although its still hypothetical TD, if the Freeview promise of grabbing the shows you wanted reliably eventuated, would you trade your ad skip in for a good x32 FF for it? I'd assume it would ease the management of your recordings considerably if you could just select the name and go?

Regards

Peter Gillespie

[wklie]

Tassie Devil, on 06 March 2012 - 12:27 PM, said:

being set by EPG, "4 corners" stopped recording on the MAGIC after 10 minutes.

If it's a repeat booking, please go the To-Do List and examine the start time and end time for the booking of "4 corners" and see if there's anything unusual.

[Tassie Devil]

wklie, on 06 March 2012 - 01:57 PM, said:

If it's a repeat booking, please go the To-Do List and examine the start time and end time for the booking of "4 corners" and see if there's anything unusual.

OK, just had a look and it is scheduled to start at 20.33 and finish as 21.30 so presume that was the setting for last night.  Weird!!

John

[Paul55]

pgdownload, on 06 March 2012 - 01:17 PM, said:

would you trade your ad skip in for a good x32 FF for it?

No! I'd rather continue with my current regime. I have to suffer lack-of-skip on my Foxtel IQ and my T-Box. Both wife and I despise it. Once you've developed a good skipping process, FF (of any kind) is primitive.

[Paul55]

DrP, on 06 March 2012 - 08:34 AM, said:

The list of shows I've logged going to air in excess of 5 minutes early (compared to EIT and freeview guides) is quite extensive.  Here's just a few I've noticed while monitoring the p/f and CRID information.  It's more likely that a programme in prime time will run later than indicated, but it's not a certainty by any means.

30 Rock
Desperate Housewives
Alactraz
Dad's Army
Flashpoint
Supernatural
Happy Endings
Castle
Southland

Add Dark Blue to the list, or for that matter, any show that has a start time after 10:30pm.

[wklie]

Tassie Devil, on 06 March 2012 - 02:19 PM, said:

OK, just had a look and it is scheduled to start at 20.33 and finish as 21.30 so presume that was the setting for last night.  Weird!!

So the start and end times are correct?  Please check the date (in the to-do list).  If the date is still yesterday, it usually indicates that the recording was preempted by another booking.  From the recorded programme list, you don't see other programmes that covered 20:43 to 21:30 right?