215 replies to this topic

[ant5476]

I have been looking at the Free Tv Restack Matrix from the ACMA website and it is proposing three new digital TV translators for the Sydney Digital TV licence plan,
Razrorback, Kurrajong and Vault Hill. These sites are proposed to be switched on after analouge is switched off and restacking of all digital frequences is complete.

The proposed power (maximum ERP) polarity and frequencies fo these new sites are-
Razorback 4kw Horizontal, ABC 46, ATN 47, TCN 48, TEN 49, SBS 50, UA 51,
Kurrajong 4kw Horizontal, SBS 28, ATN 29, ABC 30, UA 31, TEN 32, TCN 33
Vault Hill 1kw Horizontal, SBS 28, ATN 29, ABC 30, UA 31, TEN 32, TCN 33

Kurrajong and Vault Hill will be part of the SFN with Kings Cross and Manly Mosman, and Razorback will be a standalone site and will not be part of a SFN.
At the proposed 4KW of ERP the Kurrajong and Razorback sites should cover a large area of the Sydney metro area.

Does anyone know any further information on this and possible location of the new sites.

[GlennP]

ant5476, on Apr 25 2011, 11:23 PM, said:

I have been looking at the Free Tv Restack Matrix from the ACMA website and it is proposing three new digital TV translators for the Sydney Digital TV licence plan,
Razrorback, Kurrajong and Vault Hill. These sites are proposed to be switched on after analouge is switched off and restacking of all digital frequences is complete.

The proposed power (maximum ERP) polarity and frequencies fo these new sites are-
Razorback 4kw Horizontal, ABC 46, ATN 47, TCN 48, TEN 49, SBS 50, UA 51,
Kurrajong 4kw Horizontal, SBS 28, ATN 29, ABC 30, UA 31, TEN 32, TCN 33
Vault Hill 1kw Horizontal, SBS 28, ATN 29, ABC 30, UA 31, TEN 32, TCN 33

Kurrajong and Vault Hill will be part of the SFN with Kings Cross and Manly Mosman, and Razorback will be a standalone site and will not be part of a SFN.
At the proposed 4KW of ERP the Kurrajong and Razorback sites should cover a large area of the Sydney metro area.

Does anyone know any further information on this and possible location of the new sites.

Have no further info, the Razorback site may likely be where C91.3 FM broadcasts from?

If this plan happens, it's going to leave the UHF Spectrum tight, considering both Newcastle & Illawarra have a digital channel above channel 51 that will have to be moved & also the fact that all Newcastle digital channels are supposed to be changed, (different to the Illawarra), to stop interference problems between the two areas in summer "tropo" periods.
I also note that Newcastle (Mt Sugarloaf) doesn't have any re-stacked channel assignments, guess they haven't figured out what to do yet.
Another note that SBS Sydney (Artarmon) will be coming done into band 3 on Ch.7, with 9A still being used for DAB+ digital radio & Ch. 9 & 10 being left vacant, what happens with Ch.31 (Community TV), it's not left on UHF as there is no UHF in the Capital cities from the Main TX sites, seems it's just left out.

[GoForMoe]

GlennP, on Apr 26 2011, 10:01 AM, said:

Have no further info, the Razorback site may likely be where C91.3 FM broadcasts from?

If this plan happens, it's going to leave the UHF Spectrum tight, considering both Newcastle & Illawarra have a digital channel above channel 51 that will have to be moved & also the fact that all Newcastle digital channels are supposed to be changed, (different to the Illawarra), to stop interference problems between the two areas in summer "tropo" periods.
I also note that Newcastle (Mt Sugarloaf) doesn't have any re-stacked channel assignments, guess they haven't figured out what to do yet.
Another note that SBS Sydney (Artarmon) will be coming done into band 3 on Ch.7, with 9A still being used for DAB+ digital radio & Ch. 9 & 10 being left vacant, what happens with Ch.31 (Community TV), it's not left on UHF as there is no UHF in the Capital cities from the Main TX sites, seems it's just left out.

VHF9 will be used for DAB+ in other areas, leaving VHF10 as an assigned spare. It is likely that community TV will get a portion of this, the planning for the channels will be based on 23Mbps multiplexes, whereas the community stations are given only 7Mbps. So I suspect they might end up auctioning the remainder, or using it for other Government services (NITV perhaps?).

[Moasaica]

GlennP, on Apr 26 2011, 10:01 AM, said:

Have no further info, the Razorback site may likely be where C91.3 FM broadcasts from?

Most definitely. It would give people of Campbelltown & the Macarthur region who currently get poor DTV reception from either Artarmon/Gore Hill or Knights Hill (Illawarra) an option to use the Razorback site to get their DTV reception.

Edited by dtv_campbelltown, 26 April 2011 - 07:26 PM.

[ant5476]

Yes I have also noticed to that there are no digital restack frequencies for Newcastle either, ACMA must be having trouble deciding what to do with the Newcastle Illawarra digital frequency restack.
It will be interesting to see if Community TV gets allocated channel 10 after the restack has been completed or will the ACA put an end to community TV for good?

What interests me the most with the new proposed Razorback and Kurrajong translator services is the proposed power level 4kw, which would be 16kw if it was an analogue service. Kurrajong Heights and Razorback Range are both elevated sites with good line of site towards Sydney so these services should cover large parts of the Sydney metro area. Razorback is proposed to operate as a standalone service and not be included in the Sydney SFN so it will be interesting to see how much of Sydney this service will cover if the ACMA implements these new services.

[ant5476]

Since my last post there has been some update from the ACMA on the propsed planned translator sites for these new services which will commence once the restacking of digital services is completed, these are -

Sydney North West (Kurrajong) Miles Comms Site 2 246 Burralow Road KURRAJONG HEIGHTS. Is this the Haweskbury Community Radio site?

Sydney South West (Razorback Range) Broadcast Site Mt Prudhoe RAZORBACK RANGE, 2WS 88.3 translator site, not C91.3 site

Picton Comm Site Vault Hill PICTON.

These services will be part of the Sydney license area and will rebroadcast the Sydney digital services

[alanh]

All,
TSN29H will have to move to channel 10 because the Kurrajong site is using channel 29H for ATN's programs.
Razorback is using the channel grouping for low powered translators to minimise interference to 4G or LTE mobile communications.
This leaves channels 34H - 39H for Illawarra  and 40H - 45H for Hunter Valley or vice versa.
This means Canberra/Southern Tablelands and Manning River will have to go to Band 3 vertically polarised completely
Central Coast has the option of channels 28 - 33 as either a high powered transmitter or an SFN.

The Central Tablelands channels 36H - 42H Bathurst 7V - 12V. Additionally Central Tablelands used channel 8V for analog. So this choice is more controlled by the allocations West of the Great Divide.
I expect that band 3 Vertical will not be used because of Canberra allocation. So what ever the choice is antenna systems will need to change, Options include Vertically polarised UHF or a change to channel 28 - 33.

We are yet to see the ACMA's decisions.

The changes will have to wait until 2014.

AlanH

[muiredachau]

ant5476, on Nov 3 2011, 11:37 PM, said:

Since my last post there has been some update from the ACMA on the propsed planned translator sites for these new services which will commence once the restacking of digital services is completed, these are -

Sydney North West (Kurrajong) Miles Comms Site 2 246 Burralow Road KURRAJONG HEIGHTS. Is this the Haweskbury Community Radio site?

Sydney South West (Razorback Range) Broadcast Site Mt Prudhoe RAZORBACK RANGE, 2WS 88.3 translator site, not C91.3 site

Picton Comm Site Vault Hill PICTON.

These services will be part of the Sydney license area and will rebroadcast the Sydney digital services

2VTR 88.9 Hawkesbury Radio is listed by ACMA as Miles Comms Site 1 1 246 Burralow Road KURRAJONG HEIGHTS

[muiredachau]

muiredachau, on 04 January 2012 - 03:16 PM, said:

QUOTE
2VTR 88.9 Hawkesbury Radio is listed by ACMA as Miles Comms Site 1 1 246 Burralow Road KURRAJONG HEIGHTS

sorry it's 89.9

[Moasaica]

According to the MySwitch website, the frequencies for the new Razorback (to serve Sydney's outer south-western suburbs) & Vault Hill (Picton & surrounds) traslators have been revealed. They have indicated that both will start transmitting well before the general switchover date of 31st December 2013, ie. before the UHF restacking.

The frequencies for both Razorback & Vault Hill are as follows:

ABC - UHF 41 (620.5 MHz)
TEN - UHF 44 (641.5 MHz)
ATN - UHF 47 (662.5 MHz)
TCN - UHF 50 (683.5 MHz)
SBS - UHF 64 (781.5 MHz)

Both will be broadcasting on Horizontal polarisation.

The frequencies for the Kurrajong Heights translator (to serve Sydney's outer north-western suburbs) are as follows:

ABC - UHF 30 (543.5 MHz)
SBS - UHF 32 (557.5 MHz)
TCN - UHF 33 (564.5 MHz)
TEN - UHF 45 (648.5 MHz)
ATN - UHF 48 (669.5 MHz)

It will be broadcasting on Horizontal polarisation, as well as being part of the SFN network (with the exception of SBS) with the Kings Cross & North Head translators.

Edited by dtv_campbelltown, 15 February 2012 - 02:43 PM.

[alanh]

dtv_campbelltown
The DBCDE is auctioning channels 52 - 69 and the channels. So for Razorback & Vault Hill to use group E channels they will have to change channels of ABN, TEN and SBS to fit channels 46 - 51 on restacking.

Considering that more of the allocated channels are in group B which is channels 28 - 33  looking the most likely SFN.

AlanH

[muiredachau]

I live in Richmond under the Kurrajong transmitter. So if those frequancies are correct at siwtchover what would have to do to be able to receive them as well as TSN?

[alanh]

muiredachau,
It depends on when transmissions start. If it is as above then use http://www.hillsante...&ProductID=3017
When the restack occurs the allocation of 30, 32, 33 leaves 28, 29 and 31 to move channels 45 & 48 into seems the most likely option.H

If this occurs then a band 4 only Yagi-Uda antenna is a better choice.

AlanH

[Moasaica]

According to the MySwitch website, the Razorback (Sydney South West) & Kurrajong Heights (Sydney North West) DTV translators is set to be switched on in August. The Picton translator won't be switched on until December, with the proposed frequencies being kept secret (despite it being known before). Despite Picton being in the Sydney switchover area, most people in that town can only get TV reception from Knights Hill (Illawarra), which is course is now a digital-only site (Southern NSW/ACT, including Illawarra, had switched off analogue on 5th June). This is because the Razorback Range blocks the TV signals from Artarmon/Gore Hill (Sydney) being received into Picton.

[Moasaica]

dtv_campbelltown, on 10 June 2012 - 04:00 PM, said:

According to the MySwitch website, the Razorback (Sydney South West) & Kurrajong Heights (Sydney North West) DTV translators is set to be switched on in August.

That has now been pushed back to September, according to MySwitch.

dtv_campbelltown, on 10 June 2012 - 04:00 PM, said:

The Picton translator won't be switched on until December

That has now been pushed forward to October.

[mgaleano]

I wonder if these sites will be used for digital radio too. Would the Kurrajong Heights cover Penrith area ok?

[mtv]

mgaleano, on 29 July 2012 - 08:47 PM, said:

I wonder if these sites will be used for digital radio too. Would the Kurrajong Heights cover Penrith area ok?

I expect it should cover Penrith quite well.

[GlennP]

mgaleano, on 29 July 2012 - 08:47 PM, said:

I wonder if these sites will be used for digital radio too. Would the Kurrajong Heights cover Penrith area ok?

It will never happen, Kurrajong Heights is out of the Sydney radio licence area, the current DAB+ digital radio signal restrictions, are engineered to keep the signals out of that area. The licence area border runs along the river between Penrith & Richmond. Yes I know WSFM have a translator/transmitter out of the licence area at Winmalee, but WSFM operate under a special licence that includes both the Sydney Wide RA1, & the old Western Sydney Suburbs RA1 licence area, that the operated under when they were 2WS 1224 AM, prior to going FM & DAB+. The West Sydney licence area does actually include Kurrajong Heights. The Western Sydney Suburbs licence area is Analogue AM/FM only, it didn't transfer to digital radio. It may do at some time in the future, but I'm pretty sure WSFM (Digital) won't be able to operate under it any longer, they will fully become a Sydney Wide Digital radio licence only.

[mgaleano]

Knights hill is outside i98fm and wave fm lic area but the stations are transmitted from there. If it is low power would it be that much of an issue? 96.1 fm the real local station has poor reception there anyway. I don't think  there would be any complaints as it is being rebroadcasted on digital anyway. Anyway about time they got a TV repeater out there anyway.

Edited by mgaleano, 30 July 2012 - 04:33 PM.

[GlennP]

mgaleano, on 30 July 2012 - 04:29 PM, said:

Knights hill is outside i98fm and wave fm lic area but the stations are transmitted from there. If it is low power would it be that much of an issue? 96.1 fm the real local station has poor reception there anyway. I don't think  there would be any complaints as it is being rebroadcasted on digital anyway. Anyway about time they got a TV repeater out there anyway.

Actually Knights Hill is inside the Wollongong/Illawarra Radio licence area, it cuts back inland & goes around it, Knights Hill is also inside the Nowra licence area, it comes out towards the coast around it, that's why 94.9 Power FM Nowra broadcasts from the same spot as i98 & WaveFM, PowerFM's directed South & i98/Wave FM's directed North.
Yes it would matter, even if it's low power, all the Sydney stations that would be on it, would be broadcasting outside their licence area.
It will depend on whether DAB+ or DRM/DRM+ or some other form of digital radio is used in regional areas, 96.1, 2LT & Move FM will all get their own Digital transmitter somewhere across the Blue Mountains, if a translator for these services are needed around Kurrajong Heights, then it may be situated here, but it may not be needed for the "real" local stations, a digital radio transmitter at Wentworth Falls my suffice.
A Digital TV translator service at Kurrajong Heights is OK, as the Sydney TV licence area differs to the Radio licence area. The TV one goes all the way up the mountains to Bell & Mt Victoria.

Edited by GlennP, 30 July 2012 - 06:03 PM.

[mtv]

GlennP, on 30 July 2012 - 06:01 PM, said:

A Digital TV translator service at Kurrajong Heights is OK, as the Sydney TV licence area differs to the Radio licence area. The TV one goes all the way up the mountains to Bell & Mt Victoria.

Correct, however, just to add confusion, Foxtel 'Sydney' area ends at Emu Plains, at the foot of the mountains, so those viewers in the Blue Mountains who get crap terrestrial TV signals due to terrain, can't even get Sydney FTA channels via Foxtel.

[mgaleano]

Thanks Glenn . I stand corrected.  So around Australia there are no tv or radio that broadcast technically outside the lic area. I wonder how they can fix the blackspots for dab+ in sydneys west like what they are doing for tv.

I think potentially the Kurrajong heights site could be the primary high power tv transmitter if they had to close down the main transmitters. They would just need higher power repeaters in the eastern suburbs / kings cross and northern beaches. It won't happen but it would be interesting if tv was invented today where could they put the transmitters. You wonder how they managed to put the transmitters in a prime location on the north shore even in the 50s.

http://recordsearch....7654355&S=1&T=P

Imagine the outrage if they tried to do that today!!! Too high and ugly, though I personally don't mind.

This was in 20s for 2fc radio. http://pool.abc.net....lloughby-sydney . Amazing photo. I wonder if that covered Sydney better than digital radio today .

GlennP, on 30 July 2012 - 06:01 PM, said:

Actually Knights Hill is inside the Wollongong/Illawarra Radio licence area, it cuts back inland & goes around it, Knights Hill is also inside the Nowra licence area, it comes out towards the coast around it, that's why 94.9 Power FM Nowra broadcasts from the same spot as i98 & WaveFM, PowerFM's directed South & i98/Wave FM's directed North.
Yes it would matter, even if it's low power, all the Sydney stations that would be on it, would be broadcasting outside their licence area.
It will depend on whether DAB+ or DRM/DRM+ or some other form of digital radio is used in regional areas, 96.1, 2LT & Move FM will all get their own Digital transmitter somewhere across the Blue Mountains, if a translator for these services are needed around Kurrajong Heights, then it may be situated here, but it may not be needed for the "real" local stations, a digital radio transmitter at Wentworth Falls my suffice.
A Digital TV translator service at Kurrajong Heights is OK, as the Sydney TV licence area differs to the Radio licence area. The TV one goes all the way up the mountains to Bell & Mt Victoria.

Edited by mgaleano, 30 July 2012 - 08:18 PM.

[alanh]

All,
Katomba Licence area http://www.acma.gov....maps/la_380.pdf
2BLU 89.1 Community 2ONE 96.1 Commercial 2ICE 99.5 Commercial


Campbelltown Licence area http://www.acma.gov....maps/la_753.pdf
2MAC 91.3 Commercial 2MCR 100.3 Community

Western Sydney licence area http://www.acma.gov....maps/la_386.pdf

Sydney Licence area http://www.acma.gov....maps/la_542.pdf


Alanh

Edited by alanh, 30 July 2012 - 09:01 PM.

[alanh]

All,
Keep the following in mind. 50 kW erp transmitters need to be at least 350 km apart

DAB+ transmission channels 8A - 8D, 9D will not be available until 3rd December 2013.

Channels 9A & 9B are used by commercial/community radio. 9C ABC/SBS from Artarmon.

Channel 9 C will have to be Single Frequency Networked over the following regional sites for all programs except ABC Local Radio.
For commercial/community stations can have one channel each;

Region and its approximate population
Canberra/Southern Tablelands 478,229,
Illawarra 275,983,
Central Tablelands 150,750,
Central Coast 312,184,
Newcastle 410,000.

The populations above cover smaller towns with their own commercial radio stations such as Goulburn, Bathurst, Parkes, Mudgee.

So as you can see all 8 DAB+ channels are used. All other DAB+ channels will be occupied by restacked DTV stations. Eg, Sydney Horizontally polarised with Canberra and Manning River vertically polarised. Note all DAB+ transmissions are vertically polarised. The Canberra DAB+ channels can be re-used in the Taree/Port Macquarie areas.

Unless Katoomba is added to the Mt Canobolas (near Orange, Central Tablelands) and Campbelltown is added to the Illawarra multiplex there is no space in DAB+. These stations would be better off local using DRM+ where around 210 channels are available.

There are similar capacity issues around Melbourne and Brisbane.

AlanH

[newtaste]

WSFM on FM do broadcast from outside their Western Suburbs Sydney licence area. But yeah, but as GlennP points out for digital their transmitter is in their licence area.