44 replies to this topic

[Chopsus]

Is it just me that thinks this whole "Yellow" thing is an even bigger con than 3D?

Edited by Chopsus, 18 September 2010 - 11:35 PM.

[myrantz]

Chopsus, on Sep 18 2010, 09:31 PM, said:

Is it just me that thinks this whole "Yellow" thing is an even bigger con than 3D?

Red, Green, Blue is what humans tend to see... Part of human evolution (Green is from the forrest, blah blah).. Read this from the Australian Photography magazine.

They don't call it con, they call it marketing. I guess Sharp just trying other things to see if they'd stand out (no different to calling some TVs LED TVs etc)..

[Chopsus]

treblid, on Sep 18 2010, 11:50 PM, said:

They don't call it con, they call it marketing. I guess Sharp just trying other things to see if they'd stand out (no different to calling some TVs LED TVs etc)..

Um no, there is a BIG difference, an LED TV is a real thing - Yellow is not part of primary colours, so to include it is either an admission that their panels can;t reproduce true colours and need a yellow filter (in effect) or their panels bear no real resemblance to real colour (but they look good so buy one).

To put it another way, there is some utility in LED, 3D, 200hrtz etc., but to add another colour when it;s not needed is complete BS

p.s.: they started this yellow rubbish on their projectors about a year ago and to date I have read no reviews claiming any increase in picture performance or fidelity ... in fact I can;t recall seeing any substantive independent review of this snake oil.

Edited by Chopsus, 19 September 2010 - 12:12 AM.

[myrantz]

Chopsus, on Sep 18 2010, 10:10 PM, said:

To put it another way, there is some utility in LED, 3D, 200hrtz etc., but to add another colour when it;s not needed is complete BS

Have a read of primary colours....

So they think 4 primary colours are better, maybe they can't create true yellow with their R, G and B somehow?

As to whether this works in this TV or not - no clue whatsoever (I would think no, unless the speed of the 4 colours somehow strike a very good balance).. Easily tested maybe by watching the simpsons?

[50MXE20]

Red Green Blue are the Primary ADDITIVE colours.

Cyan Magenta Yellow are the Primary SUBTRACTIVE colours.

[digitalj]

yellow is made up of 127 Red and 127 Green in the RGB standard, so what's the point in having yellow separate?

[myrantz]

50MXE20, on Sep 18 2010, 10:29 PM, said:

Red Green Blue are the Primary ADDITIVE colours.

Cyan Magenta Yellow are the Primary SUBTRACTIVE colours.

Give some, take some colour system? Seems they're using RGB+Y as some form of additive system?

digitalj, on Sep 18 2010, 10:51 PM, said:

yellow is made up of 127 Red and 127 Green in the RGB standard, so what's the point in having yellow separate?

Most diodes (?) or whatever those little things (that seems to explode after a few years) aren't true red, green or blue... And they may well have different brightness or intensity. Maybe using a single yellow is better than using both red and green? I can think of some theories (i.e. wild guesses) why a 4 colour system might work, but whether they really do in real life is a different story. I wonder if these TVs can be calibrated?

(e.g. our eyes predimonatory see green colours easily and can see red quickly). I can't really understand what yellow plays in our human perception (been wondering about this way before as a kid - why do traffic lights use green, red and yellow?) I get the green and red. But why yellow?

I guess wait for user reviews and see what people think. FWIW I can't really think of any solid yellow stuffs other than the simpsons, and the only movie I can think of with anything that's yellow is actually Kill Bill... And TBH they are yellow enough for me..

[digitalj]

treblid, on Sep 19 2010, 01:02 AM, said:

(e.g. our eyes predimonatory see green colours easily and can see red quickly). I can't really understand what yellow plays in our human perception (been wondering about this way before as a kid - why do traffic lights use green, red and yellow?) I get the green and red. But why yellow?

red = danger or stop
green = safe or go
yellow = warning

yellow just happens to sit half way between red and green and since a warning is worse than safe, but safer than danger, it makes perfect sense to have the other light. yellow

[MLXXX]

treblid, on Sep 19 2010, 01:02 AM, said:

... aren't true red, green or blue... And they may well have different brightness or intensity. Maybe using a single yellow is better than using both red and green?
...
I guess wait for user reviews and see what people think. ...

Yes, I'm keeping an open mind. There are very few reviews at this point.  Here are some favourable comments from one review:

Quote

With the two TVs sitting next to each other, the thing that became immediately obvious was how harsh and garish the colours on my Samsung set now appeared. The 46LE821E produced much subtler and more realistic colours, especially on skin-tones.

Sharp claims that gold is a particularly difficult colour for conventional RGB sets to reproduce and, as luck would have it, there was a scene in a recent episode of Doctor Who on BBC HD that was set in a cave with strong golden-yellow backlighting. The colour reproduction on this scene really was striking, suggesting that Sharp might indeed be on to something with its yellow-pixel technology.

[DrP]

digitalj, on Sep 19 2010, 12:51 AM, said:

yellow is made up of 127 Red and 127 Green in the RGB standard, so what's the point in having yellow separate?

It may be to accommodate a deficiency in the levels that can be produced by the red and green elements alone.  It has to be remembered that this sort of stuff is not linear in the slightest and introducing a yellow element may simply be an easier solution.

Ultimately if the panel can reasonably accurately produce the 'full' range of colours, does it matter if it has separate yellow elements?

[Chopsus]

DrP, on Sep 19 2010, 02:57 AM, said:

Ultimately if the panel can reasonably accurately produce the 'full' range of colours, does it matter if it has separate yellow elements?

If it works (better) no - but it will also complicate proper calibration due to an extra variable (yellow)to adjust.

[myrantz]

digitalj, on Sep 18 2010, 11:14 PM, said:

red = danger or stop
green = safe or go
yellow = warning

yellow just happens to sit half way between red and green and since a warning is worse than safe, but safer than danger, it makes perfect sense to have the other light. yellow

Ah.. Just that simple? Makes sense, as when it goes yellow I'm always in a dillemma to go go (faster) or stop (dangerous as the driver behind me is thinking the same thing).. Now Perth even have speed cameras + red light cameras in junctions now to complicate things further.. :/

MLXXX, on Sep 18 2010, 11:33 PM, said:

Yes, I'm keeping an open mind. There are very few reviews at this point.  Here are some favourable comments from one review:

Wow.. 120W and they say it's steep power consumption... Me quite like the following feature:

Quote

I also liked the way that the Menu button on the remote control shrinks the programme image slightly, creating room on the screen for the various menu options so that you can adjust the image settings while still having a clear view of the image itself.

Is this a Sharp patent? Wondering will we see this only on Sharp panels, or everybody?

DrP, on Sep 19 2010, 12:57 AM, said:

It may be to accommodate a deficiency in the levels that can be produced by the red and green elements alone.  It has to be remembered that this sort of stuff is not linear in the slightest and introducing a yellow element may simply be an easier solution.

That's the word I'm looking for..  

DrP, on Sep 19 2010, 12:57 AM, said:

Ultimately if the panel can reasonably accurately produce the 'full' range of colours, does it matter if it has separate yellow elements?

Human eyes can't see the full range of colours anyway, and I think we can only recognise a small amount of colours at any one time.

May well be a con, but so far this is prob the innovation that results in higher manufacturing costs, not like the others "innvoations" we had seen lately - 3D, edge lit (which sounds more like cost cutting in a sense).

[Thudd]

A similar effect perhaps to the six-colour inkjet printers?

[alanh]

All,
The human eye consists of predominantly red sensitive, predominantly green and predominantly blue sensitive cones for colour vision and a single type of rods for peripheral and low light vision.
The camera simulates the eye by using a broadband red, green and blue filters in front of the CCD light sensors. The idea is to copy the colour characteristics of the eye.

On display the ideal is to use a red, green and a blue lasers of the same wavelength as the peak sensitivities of the respective cones. This is to make the red cones only respond to the red signal from the camera etc. After all you are not seeing the original scene.

Light Emitting Diodes only produce a single wavelength of light, just like the laser. In the LED screens the LED light is balanced so that the power of each LED is equal and is then diffused over the screen. LCD screens use a Fluoescent tube and diffuser. Between the viewer and the diffuser is an LCD which blocks the white light. If each pixel is split into 3 then a red filter is in one LCD path, a green filter in the second LCD path and a blue filter in the third. This produces additive mixing.

These individual coloured filters must be beside each other. If they are one behind each other then subtractive mixing is used and then the LCD has to go magenta, yellow or/and cyan. If they are all activated no light emerges. This is electonically very easily produced but the displays are not!

In conclusion its a gimmick.

AlanH

[M'bozo]

Thudd, on Oct 7 2010, 02:41 PM, said:

A similar effect perhaps to the six-colour inkjet printers?

Similarly expensive to rectify when the colours run out?

[kirily@selbyacoustics]

digitalj, on Sep 19 2010, 02:14 AM, said:

red = danger or stop
green = safe or go
yellow = warning

yellow just happens to sit half way between red and green and since a warning is worse than safe, but safer than danger, it makes perfect sense to have the other light. yellow

One theory I have heard is that yellow is a warning colour in nature (ie. Bee's, certain flowers) and appears very infrequently so you are more likely to notice it. Think of yellow school crossing signs, winding road street signs, pedestrian crossing signs. Signs that let us know we have to be careful but not alarmed.

It follows that red is the colour of danger. ie. Stop sign,  no entry sign, speed limit surrounds, give way signs. These signs tell us that something dangerous is just ahead. Red also doesn't not appear frequently in nature and is the colour a human turns when hurt ie. blood!

Green is the most common colour in nature and so is relaxing and reassuring.

[M'bozo]

alanh, on Oct 7 2010, 06:35 PM, said:

In conclusion its a gimmick.

Sounds like 3D.

[greyeye]

Chopsus, on Sep 18 2010, 11:31 PM, said:

Is it just me that thinks this whole "Yellow" thing is an even bigger con than 3D?

extra colour isnt gimmick at all. (while I do not know how effective Sharp Quattron panels are..) there is no way RGB display can show all the natural colours.
sRGB, Adobe RGB, etc are all different colour spaces to provide WORKING set colours.

But at the same time, 100 naturally correct colour doesnt not mean vibrant and good colors, I doubt ppl will buy TVs/Monitors based on colour accuracy anyway.

[Owen]

The aim is not to display the full natural colour range but to accurately display the HD video colour gamut so that video is displayed correctly, good RGB displays do that easily.
A display that does not conform to the HD colour standard (Rec 709) is inaccurate by definition and will not display colour as it was intended to be viewed.

[MLXXX]

I have an open mind on how to render colour in a display panel, including how to achieve a result (by whatever means) that conforms with a colour standard.

However I note that a very recent review (15 Oct 2010) of a Sharp 46" Quattron TV is largely unfavourable in relation to colour performance: http://www.cnet.com....x-339304449.htm

[ekkieTHUMP]

Trusted reviews scores the upcoming LC-60LE925E 9/10 for 2D picture quality and Flatepanels HD whilst pointing out it can't be calibrated for truely accurate color still wrote "But HD is beautiful - nothing less. The 60-inch screen really helps enhance the tiniest details in the Blu-ray pictures and again the good black levels contribute to intensity and depth. I also experienced fairly good detailing in fast paced scenes on LE925.
LE925 also handles 1080p24 correctly to ensure smooth playback of Blu-ray movies."
Surely this is exactly what the average punter will be looking for when they go into the shop to buy a new tv.Given that the majority of people will never calibrate a tv and think "Dynamic" is how tv is meant to look Sharp may have given the customer a genuine alternative.

[mello yello]

kirily@selbyacoustics, on Oct 7 2010, 07:42 PM, said:

One theory I have heard is that yellow is a warning colour in nature (ie. Bee's, certain flowers) and appears very infrequently so you are more likely to notice it. Think of yellow school crossing signs, winding road street signs, pedestrian crossing signs. Signs that let us know we have to be careful but not alarmed.

It follows that red is the colour of danger. ie. Stop sign,  no entry sign, speed limit surrounds, give way signs. These signs tell us that something dangerous is just ahead. Red also doesn't not appear frequently in nature and is the colour a human turns when hurt ie. blood!

Green is the most common colour in nature and so is relaxing and reassuring.

Close but the reason its used on the road is more a safety reason rather than a choice of settling for a "warning" colour

Yellow is used  because it is the brightest colour that can be seen under any lighting conditions. Kids raincoats are yellow, school buses (in movies) are yellow  and road studies have shown that yellow cars are the easiest to notice peripherally, surprisingly not white but yellow. It has the highest visibilty

The "darkest" cars that never get seen and failed the visibilty tests are silver/grey

It could stand to reason that by introducing yellow as a 4th primary colour they think they might be able to achieve subtle "brighter" colours, and in theory, as a result be able to achive "blacker blacks"

gimmick ? dunno

I voted Chops thinks too much  

[Mining Man]

mello yello II, on Jan 23 2011, 10:02 AM, said:

~
Yellow is used  because it is the brightest colour that can be seen under any lighting conditions. Kids raincoats are yellow, school buses (in movies) are yellow  and road studies have shown that yellow cars are the easiest to notice peripherally, surprisingly not white but yellow. It has the highest visibilty
~

Green is used exclusively for lighting emergency pathways (we mark our underground refuge chambers and escapeways / ladderways with green lighting). Think also Exit signs at movie theatres and around fire escapes.

Green is the last colour you see in failing light, and through smoke.


So, as armageddon descends on the earth and fire rises from the sea, we'll have a lot of car accidents at the traffic lights trying to escape...  

[mello yello]

Mining Man, on Jan 23 2011, 09:38 AM, said:

Green is used exclusively for lighting emergency pathways (we mark our underground refuge chambers and escapeways / ladderways with green lighting). Think also Exit signs at movie theatres and around fire escapes.

thats interesting but as an emergency exit indicator I dont know if green is chosen because of its luminace but more so because of what we have always associated green with ie safety, go, EXIT --->

Mining Man, on Jan 23 2011, 09:38 AM, said:

Green is the last colour you see in failing light, and through smoke.

against a grey/black/browny/yellowy even smokey background that would make sense

...up on the surface under lighting, headlights, sun etc , possibly not, which would account for more scenarios than smokey firey ones

Mining Man, on Jan 23 2011, 09:38 AM, said:

So, as armageddon descends on the earth and fire rises from the sea, we'll have a lot of car accidents at the traffic lights trying to escape...  

Wont affect me, I always run the lights

Armaggedon outta here if that ever happens

[Steve C]

mello yello II, on Jan 23 2011, 10:02 AM, said:

gimmick ? dunno

I voted Chops thinks too much  

+1...

And I'd even add - If I felt it's a gimmick and the image looked no better as a consequence, I wouldn't buy one. If I didn't think it was a gimmick and I saw the image as being very noticeably superior to non-4 colour screens, I might buy one if I had the money.

If Sharp's 4 colour technology doesn't make you feel like buying it - then don't! If you see one on display in some store somewhere and you think it looks so awesome that you're as jealous as all Hell, then save up for one or wait until the inevitable price drop kicks in.

I don't understand why some people get their knickers in a knot about stuff like this...   Maybe some people just like feeling constriction on their genitalia.