150 replies to this topic

[Mining Man]

Drizt, on Jan 4 2012, 09:35 PM, said:

Nothing new really.  People want to believe in magic but when they have to rely 'only' on their ears they fail miserably.

You know Drizt, there's sometimes a romance to this stuff that is important to the individual. Continually pontificating about a superior position predicated on demonstrable science, and condescending to those that might just like the warm and fuzzy and to hell with reality, is actually kinda ugly after a while.

Just an observation...

[Drizt]

Mining Man, on Jan 4 2012, 10:17 PM, said:

You know Drizt, there's sometimes a romance to this stuff that is important to the individual. Continually pontificating about a superior position predicated on demonstrable science, and condescending to those that might just like the warm and fuzzy and to hell with reality, is actually kinda ugly after a while.

Just an observation...

I do see what you are saying but the door swings both ways.  The purely subjective guys constantly piss on those with a more subjective bent.

I have ZERO problem with people liking things for ANY reason.  I do have a problem with people telling me that they are right and I am wrong based on a subjective opinion.  People get very upset with that distinction, and that is their right.

[myrantz]

Interesting how some seem fixated on the pointless, but fail to highlight the conclusion from the abstract ..

Right at the end,

Quote

Differences in taste among individual players, along with differences in playing qualities among individual instruments, appear more important than any general differences between new and old violins. Rather than searching for the “secret” of Stradivari, future research might best focused on how violinists evaluate instruments, on which specific playing qualities are most important to them, and on how these qualities relate to measurable attributes of the instruments, whether old or new.

Sounds familiar?

Fufufu, MLXXX. Here's the definition for fufufu jic you're clueless to what fufufu means ...

Extra fufufu points if you can figure out what the text in bold and italics means tool...  

[:)]

Mining Man, on Jan 4 2012, 10:17 PM, said:

You know Drizt, there's sometimes a romance to this stuff that is important to the individual. Continually pontificating about a superior position predicated on demonstrable science, and condescending to those that might just like the warm and fuzzy and to hell with reality, is actually kinda ugly after a while.

Just an observation...

another observation...these kind of threads seem to draw the same people all the time. And they end up talking about the same stuff over and over again...no matter what the original topic...

I suppose this thread here replaces the default thread that was the power cable one...well until it turns into a slanging match and goes ugly...which might be sooner rather than later

[POV]

:), on Jan 4 2012, 09:51 PM, said:

another observation...these kind of threads seem to draw the same people all the time. And they end up talking about the same stuff over and over again...no matter what the original topic...

I suppose this thread here replaces the default thread that was the power cable one...well until it turns into a slanging match and goes ugly...which might be sooner rather than later

Yes, it does seem like this is accurate.  Shame though....

[Drizt]

Drew,

What are your thoughts on this (OP) ?

[POV]

Drizt, on Jan 4 2012, 11:23 PM, said:

Drew,

What are your thoughts on this (OP) ?

Well...I think it is a shame that a high profile retailer is prepared to sell (in some cases) incrediblly expensive products that he believes are a total waste of money.  I place a high value on professional integrity.  Of course as some have pointed out, my expectations  very well be unreasonable here.  I suspect that SDL nailed the truth, that he used to be passionate but is beaten down.

The other point is that I don't belive that audio equipment consumers are unusually ignorant compared to consumers of other luxury products

[MLXXX]

:), on Jan 4 2012, 10:21 PM, said:

another observation...these kind of threads seem to draw the same people all the time. And they end up talking about the same stuff over and over again...no matter what the original topic...

Well the original post referred to a lack of being able to hear differences in double blind testing but a continuation of selling the highly priced product. So where would one expect the thread to lead?

In this thread we have members who are supporters and decriers of vinyl discs, supporters and decriers of blind testing, and a camp who say "let them buy what they like, it's their money".

The original post raised an ethical question. I myself would have great difficulty pedalling product at high prices that didn't demonstrably perform better than cheaper product I could also sell. I'd be inclined to do double blind testing and make the results known to customers. But the successful retailer is typically not a nice guy willing to disclose doubts about his product.  He is there to make profit.  If a customer is ignorant enough to think that a $3,000 power cord is good value, let the customer present their credit card and then be sold what they think they need. (Forgive the vulgarity, but a sucker is born every minute.)

Having said that, there is a faint possibility of ACCC action over a $3000 power cord, particularly if the circumstances involve an over-enthusiastic sales person making exaggerated claims to the customer to persuade the customer to buy. (The actual wording on the packaging of luxury power cords tends to be vague, from what I've seen on the net; presumably to avoid litigation.)

Yes there is a lot of similarity in subject matter to the infamous Advice on Power Cords thread. Likely to be a lot of rehashing, if this thread persists.

Edited by MLXXX, 05 January 2012 - 09:13 AM.

[gone_bush]

POV, on Jan 5 2012, 01:35 AM, said:

Well...I think it is a shame that a high profile retailer is prepared to sell (in some cases) incrediblly expensive products that he believes are a total waste of money.  I place a high value on professional integrity.  Of course as some have pointed out, my expectations  very well be unreasonable here.  I suspect that SDL nailed the truth, that he used to be passionate but is beaten down.

The other point is that I don't belive that audio equipment consumers are unusually ignorant compared to consumers of other luxury products

There is another explanation: The retailer was a bit tippsy and was just "taking the p1ss".  

Edited by gone_bush, 05 January 2012 - 07:04 AM.

[POV]

gone_bush, on Jan 5 2012, 06:33 AM, said:

There is another explanation: The retailer was a bit tippsy and was just "taking the p1ss".  

Yes....that is possible, but I don't think that's the case.

[MLXXX]

Drizt, on Jan 4 2012, 08:35 PM, said:

Nothing new really.  People want to believe in magic but when they have to rely 'only' on their ears they fail miserably.

Yes some of the centuries old stringed instruments by the Italian masters do sound wonderful but others do not, when listened to with an unbiased ear. I am not talking here about slight differences in evaluation attributable to personal taste, but to major differences. Many years ago I knew an orchestra player whose instrument was a late 17th century Andrea Guarneri viola valued [I was informed] in the vicinity of $100,000. It sounded rather poor to me, both live and in recordings.  But it was reputedly a "Guarneri". I did not have the courage to make a comment to that orchestra player. But perhaps if he had sold that instrument and purchased a new one for around $15,000 he would have been able to produce a more pleasing sound for the majority of listeners.  The choice of strings has a big influence on the sound of a stringed instrument, but there is only so much that a new set of strings can do to improve or complement the sound of a violin, viola, or cello.

When purchasing stringed instruments at a shop I make sure I listen to the individual instruments very carefully. I have found there can be substantial differences between examples of the same model new instrument. This would be because the timbers used are natural products and exhibit variation, and create different resonances. My cello was not expensive to purchase but many people have commented on what a surprisingly good tone it has for a cheap instrument (including a cello teacher whose own cheap "reserve" instrument didn't sound nearly as pleasing! [his "proper" instrument was marvellous]). I heard this unexpectedly good quality in the violin shop when comparing the different celli on offer including two celli of this same model.  In an audiophile context I don't know whether speaker systems of the same model vary from each other noticeably (after any necessary settling in period). I would suspect there would be only minor differences.

Edited by MLXXX, 05 January 2012 - 10:26 AM.

[Chicken Man]

Loudspeakers are more of an engineered product rather than being a crafted product by a musical craftsman.

MDF tends to be rather consistent from batch to batch as are speaker drivers and crossover components so audible differences between loudspeakers of a particular design are quite minor. Change anything of the design in production and inconsistency will become obvious as poor quality control.
I would think musical instruments tend to be 'one off's' rather than something manufactured on a production line with tightly controlled spec's.  There is the thought that this is what makes artistry is so appealing, it's variability rather than the consistency of a production line.

C.M      

Edited by Chicken Man, 05 January 2012 - 10:35 AM.

[Puss in Books]

I don’t understand the fuss really.

Just because someone is a hi-fi dealer doesn’t mean that they should be committed to high-end products only.  There’s a whole range of audio solutions available and I am sure each trader would have a different personal preference.  Nevertheless they would offer a spectrum of products in their store broader than that personal preference.  

Just because you think Denon is as good as Krell, or you don’t need to spend $10‘000s on your equipment, doesn’t mean you are dispassionate about audio.

Sorry, but I think this thread just demonstrates the existence of audio snobbery.

[:)]

Puss in Books, on Jan 5 2012, 11:36 AM, said:

I don’t understand the fuss really.

Just because someone is a hi-fi dealer doesn’t mean that they should be committed to high-end products only.  There’s a whole range of audio solutions available and I am sure each trader would have a different personal preference.  Nevertheless they would offer a spectrum of products in their store broader than that personal preference.  

Just because you think Denon is as good as Krell, or you don’t need to spend $10‘000s on your equipment, doesn’t mean you are dispassionate about audio.

Sorry, but I think this thread just demonstrates the existence of audio snobbery.

fair comment !

[SDL]

Puss in Books, on Jan 5 2012, 11:36 AM, said:

I don’t understand the fuss really.

Just because someone is a hi-fi dealer doesn’t mean that they should be committed to high-end products only.  There’s a whole range of audio solutions available and I am sure each trader would have a different personal preference.  Nevertheless they would offer a spectrum of products in their store broader than that personal preference.  

Just because you think Denon is as good as Krell, or you don’t need to spend $10‘000s on your equipment, doesn’t mean you are dispassionate about audio.

Sorry, but I think this thread just demonstrates the existence of audio snobbery.

But I am not sure that was the OP's point? Of course a business model that chose just to sell high end products in a market like Perth, Australia would be one that was incredibly risky. It is the very same reason BMW does make 3 series etc. because trying to just compete in the high end market means you have limited buyers and you only need one bad product and your business could fall over. So yes, you need a range of products in general to offer a wide variety of solutions to customers with various budgets, unless you can afford to wait for the one or two big sales, to survive in this market. I don't think anyone doubts that, or suggests the owner only sell high end.

The issue is more when the seller is saying the high end gear he sells is no better than the budget gear but continues to recommend it to people. The question is, should he do that or not? From a purely business perspective, and as long as he does not lie he can I guess do what he likes. But it is sad from my perspective that someone in this industry appears to be no better than a used car salesman, but should I be suprised?

[myrantz]

Puss in Books, on Jan 5 2012, 08:36 AM, said:

I don’t understand the fuss really.

Just because someone is a hi-fi dealer doesn’t mean that they should be committed to high-end products only.  There’s a whole range of audio solutions available and I am sure each trader would have a different personal preference.  Nevertheless they would offer a spectrum of products in their store broader than that personal preference.  

Just because you think Denon is as good as Krell, or you don’t need to spend $10‘000s on your equipment, doesn’t mean you are dispassionate about audio.

Sorry, but I think this thread just demonstrates the existence of audio snobbery.

But...

1/ if you are going to see a dietitian with a weight problem, would you trust his advice if he  is abit overweight?

2/ Would you trust a Hyundai car salesman who's driving a Audi?

3/ A doctor that is about to give you a treatment, a treatment that he publicly/privately disapprove of.

4/ A chain smoking doctor that tells you to quit smoking or you'd get lung cancer (what TV show was that again?). Would you quit?

The reference to trusting a skinny chef.. Skinny and cooking skills aren't exactly related. Same goes with the above... But it "feels good" to see the guy setting by example.

Taking away brand names from the OP (as I am a Denon Fanboi).. If I see the retailer with Brand A and Brand B. And one is costing several times more than the other. And assuming I have the money to afford both.  I expect the retailer to show it to me how the two products are different (plus answer any other questions I have). And then I make the call myself whether the difference is justified by the price difference...

It's not audio snobbery, at least I don't think it is, I call that earning my trust.. Audio snobbery is blindly buying something that's expensive but sounds like ****...

If the retailer can't justify it, why is he even offering it for sale to me? Personally I don't have golden ears, and I don't spend a long to do a demo.. I usually have the guy set it up, and in 5-10 minutes he shows me what he wants me to know, and I am happy to make a decision. If I can't hear it, meh, not important. But if I can hear the differences he talks about, the problem is then shifted to my wife ..

Under $400 I don't bother to test anything. Over $400, that's what I do...

To you I'm being overly fussy... To my wife I'm being a cheapskate.  To the retailer, I may well be a customer..

Also, integrity is too strong a word IMO, understand the guy's still gotta eat.. Hence I prefer passion... Hifi retailers like that do exist (they do have to know their stuffs to be able to show me the differences).. How long they will last (defeated), well, that I don't know...

[Drizt]

Puss in Books, on Jan 5 2012, 11:36 AM, said:

I don’t understand the fuss really.

Just because someone is a hi-fi dealer doesn’t mean that they should be committed to high-end products only.  There’s a whole range of audio solutions available and I am sure each trader would have a different personal preference.  Nevertheless they would offer a spectrum of products in their store broader than that personal preference.  

Just because you think Denon is as good as Krell, or you don’t need to spend $10‘000s on your equipment, doesn’t mean you are dispassionate about audio.

Sorry, but I think this thread just demonstrates the existence of audio snobbery.

Fantastic post.

Edited by Drizt, 05 January 2012 - 11:38 AM.

[SDL]

myrantz, on Jan 5 2012, 12:29 PM, said:

But...

1/ if you are going to see a dietitian with a weight problem, would you trust his advice if he  is abit overweight?

2/ Would you trust a Hyundai car salesman who's driving a Audi?

3/ A doctor that is about to give you a treatment, a treatment that he publicly/privately disapprove of.

4/ A chain smoking doctor that tells you to quit smoking or you'd get lung cancer (what TV show was that again?). Would you quit?

The reference to trusting a skinny chef.. Skinny and cooking skills aren't exactly related. Same goes with the above... But it "feels good" to see the guy setting by example.

Taking away brand names from the OP (as I am a Denon Fanboi).. If I see the retailer with Brand A and Brand B. And one is costing several times more than the other. And assuming I have the money to afford both.  I expect the retailer to show it to me how the two products are different (plus answer any other questions I have). And then I make the call myself whether the difference is justified by the price difference...

It's not audio snobbery, at least I don't think it is, I call that earning my trust.. Audio snobbery is blindly buying something that's expensive but sounds like ****...

If the retailer can't justify it, why is he even offering it for sale to me? Personally I don't have golden ears, and I don't spend a long to do a demo.. I usually have the guy set it up, and in 5-10 minutes he shows me what he wants me to know, and I am happy to make a decision. If I can't hear it, meh, not important. But if I can hear the differences he talks about, the problem is then shifted to my wife ..

Under $400 I don't bother to test anything. Over $400, that's what I do...

To you I'm being overly fussy... To my wife I'm being a cheapskate.  To the retailer, I may well be a customer..

Also, integrity is too strong a word IMO, understand the guy's still gotta eat.. Hence I prefer passion... Hifi retailers like that do exist (they do have to know their stuffs to be able to show me the differences).. How long they will last (defeated), well, that I don't know...

Agreed. I don't think there is any audio snobbery when buying something you can afford and the justification is made as to why product b is better than product a. In fact whenever I buy something and there is a range of products, from a microwave to a new car, I always ask what I have to pay for the next model up and what are the benefits I am paying for. Then, like you, I choose whether I want to pay that increased amount for the product because of the said benefits. This way I rarely have remorse over the fact "if I had just paid $300 more..." and why I rarely sell any things I do buy.

[POV]

SDL, on Jan 5 2012, 10:41 AM, said:

But I am not sure that was the OP's point? Of course a business model that chose just to sell high end products in a market like Perth, Australia would be one that was incredibly risky. It is the very same reason BMW does make 3 series etc. because trying to just compete in the high end market means you have limited buyers and you only need one bad product and your business could fall over. So yes, you need a range of products in general to offer a wide variety of solutions to customers with various budgets, unless you can afford to wait for the one or two big sales, to survive in this market. I don't think anyone doubts that, or suggests the owner only sell high end.

The issue is more when the seller is saying the high end gear he sells is no better than the budget gear but continues to recommend it to people. The question is, should he do that or not? From a purely business perspective, and as long as he does not lie he can I guess do what he likes. But it is sad from my perspective that someone in this industry appears to be no better than a used car salesman, but should I be suprised?

Perfect summary, and yes the post that you quote totally misses the point.  No-one is suggesting that the dealer should only be committed to high end gear, and this has nothing to do with hi-fi snobbery ( no idea where you are going with that)

The question I have posed is more of ‘is it okay (ethically) to market, sell, put your name behind products that you believe are a ‘total’ rip-off?’   There have been several posts saying that it happens a lot ( and the inferred message of such posts is that it is therefore ok).   I’m much the same in that I find it sad, but of course I’m not surprised.

[blybo]

I think some people are forgetting the word digital from the original post. It was said he thought the ultra high end amps were a waste on digital sources... Doesn't mean he doesn't rate them or see the value in them for a particular role in an analogue set up . It could also differ if he had drive particularly power hungry speakers too.

[MLXXX]

myrantz, on Jan 5 2012, 11:29 AM, said:

Audio snobbery is blindly buying something that's expensive but sounds like ****...

High end gear rarely would rarely sound like sh*t.  However it may sound about the same as, or indistinguishable from, much cheaper gear.  To buy it just because it is expensive does suggest snobbery; or alternatively lack of trust in one's own [good] hearing ability, actual poor hearing ability; or perhaps simply a lack of time to perform a considered evaluation, combined with a fat wallet.  In the last case, a few words of encouragement from the sales person are all that are needed:  "Sir, this brand is crème de la crème. You can't go wrong with it.".

[Chicken Man]

Possibly the comments of the retailer are founded on 'The Law of Diminishing Returns' and that he has now come to the conclusion that beyond a point of technical excellence there little to be gained audibly.

Beyond that point it becomes marketing hype, but as he is in the business of sales he sells what his customers want in pursuing their illusion in sound excellence.

He did the same when he was most passionate about it but now has become more realistic about it.

We have all gone through the process, it's a hobby we pursue with demands on technical excellence from manufacturers to respond, and at a reasonable price. Market competitiveness works here to do this.

Highly priced equipment and exotic styling backed up with positive reviews often caters for those who desire to be included in that culture of audiophiles, who possibly wish to be seen as having refined tastes in sound reproduction and socially better off.
Well quite frankly, I have no sympathy at all for those 'golden ears' being ripped off by salespeople if their 'supposed status' as audiophiles is founded on overly priced equipment, which might offer little extra in the way of useful benefit but rather is as a means to impress.  

C.M

Edited by Chicken Man, 05 January 2012 - 12:26 PM.

[POV]

myrantz, on Jan 5 2012, 10:59 AM, said:

It's not audio snobbery, at least I don't think it is, I call that earning my trust.. Audio snobbery is blindly buying something that's expensive but sounds like ****...

I really don’t see how so called audio snobbery has any relevance to this discussion.

I feel audio snobbery refers to judging products by the brand name, price point and retailer, and extends to excluding/ignoring products based on these criteria.   But again I fail to see the relevance to this discussion,  which is not about that at all.

[MLXXX]

POV, on Jan 5 2012, 12:12 PM, said:

I really don’t see how so called audio snobbery has any relevance to this discussion.

I feel audio snobbery refers to judging products by the brand name, price point and retailer, and extends to excluding/ignoring products based on these criteria.   But again I fail to see the relevance to this discussion,  which is not about that at all.

On the assumption that the blind test results reported in the opening post were reliable and indicative of some other premium products as well, the relevance is that boutique hi-fi outlets will tend to include in the range of brands they carry, products with a price premium that appear to be audibly no better than much cheaper products. The question then is what level of disclosure, if any, should the retailer provide that the premium products appear to sound no better.  Should the retailer speak truthfully, but only if asked for their opinion?  Should the retailer go the other way and stress that the brand is "well thought of"?  If the retailer remains silent, buyers who purchase based on price point (the more expensive the better) will allow their assumptions or price snobbery to lead them to acquiring a product that offers no audible benefit.

A boutique retailer I would think ought to be in a position to provide informed and accurate advice. Customers could reasonably expect that.

Edited by MLXXX, 05 January 2012 - 01:05 PM.

[Chill]

A Rolex or TAG or any other Swiss watch is no better made or at it prime function that a top line SEKO

But people are happy to and sell them and buy them - there is more to luxury goods that basic function

This OP was about DIGITAL sources and to be fair while I do not agree that they all sound the same, I do personally agree that hyper expensive digital is not a big difference from midrange DIGITAL



I note (as reported in any case) he was not saying that speakers / amps or turntables are all the same !