158 replies to this topic

[miata]

I've tried everything to copy the YouTube URL here but it won't work.

Google,"  Panasonic Convention 2012 - New Viera Range  " for Video of the NEW LED and Plasma range from the Panasonic convention.

[Scotty2]

Try here

http://www.google.co...lient=firefox-a

[miata]

 Scotty2, on 07 March 2012 - 05:27 AM, said:

Try here

http://www.google.co...lient=firefox-a

Thank you for that, but it wasn't what I wanted.
OK, had to enter it manually, 10 minute video.

[Owen]

It seems Panasonic's marketing people are following Samsung's lead in calling LCD TV's with LED lighting LED TV's. This is deceptive advertising as a LED illuminated LCD is no more a "LED" TV than a conventional Cold Cathode Fluorescent Lamp LCD is a "CCFL" TV. An LCD TV is an LCD TV no matter what the lighting system is used. No wonder the punters are confused and think "LED" is something special.

Panasonic are also pushing the higher Hz= better motion BS real hard. You can display the same frame of video as many times per second as you want and it wont do anything to improve motion. In fact a very high refresh rate is no different to displaying at the native frame rate of the video source.
How "refresh rate" affects different display types varies enormously, Plasma uses pulse width modulation to control pixel output level, the very high frequencies "HZ" required to make this work is a totally different thing to frame refresh rate.
LCD's are by nature updating displays not refreshing, each frame of video stays displayed without dimming until pixel data changes.  CRT and Plasma need to "refresh" because the phosphor they use for light generation does not hold its output after being exited and needs to be "refreshed" to stay on.

Motion is dictated by the frame rate of the video source, using a higher frame rate on the display allows the use of frame interpolation (made up frames based on what the processing thinks should be there), but this is an artificial "effect" not a true representation of the source.
Film is very low frame rate and motion tends to be jittery so frame interpolation makes some sense, however video source like sport, which is captures as 50Hz interlaced this really doesn't need any help as its super smooth to start with.

Edited by Owen, 07 March 2012 - 08:24 PM.

[Struggo]

I agree Own 100%

If this is not unconscionable conduct, I don't know what is.

http://www.accc.gov....l/itemId/716807

[re-boot]

I've just read over at AVS that the 2012 sets also exhibit FBr, although at levels post 2011 patch.

Very disappointing indeed.

[diesel]

Model comparisons here

[diesel]

US Availability here

Quote

Panasonic just spat out a wallop of a press release outlining US availability (but not pricing) details for 25 of its 2012 HDTVs. Starting with those Infinite Black Ultra plasmas we saw at CES, the 65-inch VT50 is coming later this month, but you'll have to wait until April for the 50-inch GT50. If you can settle for a set with an Infinite Black Pro panel, though, the ST50 series is available now in 50- and 55-inch sizes, with the 60- and 65-inchers coming this month and in April, respectively. Moving down the 3D Plasma totem pole, the UT50 series will start tricking out this month in 42- and 50-inch flavors, with 55- and 60-inch counterparts following in April and May. The most affordable of the models listed, the 50-inch XT50 series, will go on sale before the month's end.

Had your heart set on an LED number? If you recall, Panasonic announced a boatload of those at CES, and this press release doesn't even mention all of them, but so far we know the E5 series (32 and 37 inches), the E50 series (42, 47 and 55 inches), the lower-end X5 series (32 inches) and the 47-inch TC-L47DT50 (part of the high-end DT50 series) will all be available this month. Want the best and the biggest? Panasonic is shipping its 3D-capable, 55-inch DT50- and WT50-series sets in May. Rounding out the list, there's Panasonic's first polarized 3D TVs, which will be available later this month in 47- and 55-inch flavors, with a 42-incher following in April.

[diesel]

RRPs and model numbers according to PC World and also now on the Panasonic website

Panasonic 2012 VIERA plasma TV line-up
Model    Price Availability
TH-P65VT50A  $5999    June
TH-P55VT50A  $3799    June   
TH-P65ST50A  $3999 June
TH-P60ST50A   $2799 May
TH-P50ST50A   $1749 April
TH-P60UT50A   $2499 June
TH-P55UT50A   $1999 May
TH-P50UT50A   $1399 April
TH-P50XT50A  $1199 April
TH-P50U50A   $1299 June

Panasonic 2012 VIERA LED TV line-up
Model Price    Availability
TH-L55WT50A   $3499 June
TH-L47WT50A    $2849 June
TH-L55DT50A  $TBC June
TH-L47DT50A   $TBC June                                          
TH-L47ET50A     $2049 April
TH-L42ET50A $1649 April   
TH-L55ET5A  $2399 May   
TH-L47ET5A   $1749 April
TH-L42ET5A  $1399 April
TH-L32E5A  $799 April                                  
TH-L42E5A  $1099 April

Edited by diesel, 11 April 2012 - 10:26 PM.

[Robbks]

Bugger no 50" VT

I want all the features of the VT (in-built sub, single glass sheet, etc) but don't need >50"

[foxtail]

Anyone know what the differences might be between these 3?

TH-P65VT50A $5999 June
TH-P55VT50A $3799 June
TH-P65ST50A $3999 June

[Owen]

 Robbks, on 12 April 2012 - 09:07 AM, said:

Bugger no 50" VT

I want all the features of the VT (in-built sub, single glass sheet, etc) but don't need >50"

You may not "need" a 55" but why dont you want one?

For movies a 55" is small unless can view from 2 metres. For a 3 metre viewing distance even a 65" is too small.

[miata]

After reading this review of the TX-P42ST50B, I'd be happy with the TX-P50ST50B. My viewing distance is less than 2 metres, and the 42 gets what amounts to a rave review. At under $2K at release, it could make this pensioner very happy! If I could get it before the Olympics, so much the better!

http://www.hdtvtest....01203191731.htm

[foxtail]

 Owen, on 12 April 2012 - 02:48 PM, said:

For a 3 metre viewing distance even a 65" is too small.

We had a PJ screen of 90" at 3m, currently have a 65" Panny (V10) still at 3m and find it perfect, that is not to say we wouldn't go to 70" as this is now 2years 3 months old :phone:

[Robbks]

I don't need the TV to be the largest thing in the room.
plus i'm sure a 50" would be cheaper to manufacture and thus $500 cheaper

The VT still has stuff i don;t need or want
i.e 3D, plus glasses (i have eyesight issues where all 3D content is useless to me)

but i guess given the fact it has a relatively thin bezel hidden behind the glass, then a 55" wouldn't be much larger than say other 50" Panasonics with wider bezels

[Alex]

Disappointed that GT's missing... They should've kept GT and left off VT - given published specifications, I doubt any enthusiast would pay more for VT over GT. I guess Panasonic Oz wouldn't dare keep their bragging-rights model out of the country.

 Owen, on 07 March 2012 - 08:22 PM, said:

Film is very low frame rate and motion tends to be jittery so frame interpolation makes some sense, however video source like sport, which is captures as 50Hz interlaced this really doesn't need any help as its super smooth to start with.

I don't agree that 50Hz interlaced refresh is sufficiently fast. I record my home movies in PAL (ie. fields at 50Hz) and it's nowhere near fast enough when panning. There's a good reason modern TVs do interpolation and I am glad my Samsung LCD offers it (albeit, I use at lowest setting).

(I haven't seen progressive 50Hz-sourced material (except for games), so, I can't conclude that it'd be sufficient.)

Edited by Alex, 12 April 2012 - 05:35 PM.

[diesel]

 Alex, on 12 April 2012 - 04:59 PM, said:

They should've kept GT and left off VT - given published specifications, I doubt any enthusiast would pay more for VT over GT.

I'd get a VT over a GT if given the choice.

I think in the end, Panasonic Australia found the GT and VT were competing against each other, so better to leave the higher margin model from their point of view.

[Alex]

 diesel, on 12 April 2012 - 10:16 PM, said:

I'd get a VT over a GT if given the choice.

Yeah, given choice, I'd take VT too, but then there's reality about paying for it.

[Owen]

 Alex, on 12 April 2012 - 04:59 PM, said:

Disappointed that GT's missing... They should've kept GT and left off VT - given published specifications, I doubt any enthusiast would pay more for VT over GT. I guess Panasonic Oz wouldn't dare keep their bragging-rights model out of the country.

Never buy on specs as they don’t tell you how the TV will perform.
The 2011 GT was the model to avoid, it had a screwed up gamma response that could not be adjusted out and other issues. The ST had equal colour performance and much better gamma even before calibration. After calibration the ST was very close to the VT, so close I doubt anyone could tell with the naked eye.
The 2011 GT only made sense if styling and feature’s where more important than picture quality, and for many people that is the case.

 Alex, on 12 April 2012 - 04:59 PM, said:

I don't agree that 50Hz interlaced refresh is sufficiently fast. I record my home movies in PAL (ie. fields at 50Hz) and it's nowhere near fast enough when panning. There's a good reason modern TVs do interpolation and I am glad my Samsung LCD offers it (albeit, I use at lowest setting).

(I haven't seen progressive 50Hz-sourced material (except for games), so, I can't conclude that it'd be sufficient.)

There is no interlaced refresh on flat panels, true 50i from an interlaced video camera is deinterlaced to 50 progressive frames per second for display on a flat panel, every frame contains real motion information (not interpolated) so motion is very smooth and completely jitter free. There can still be motion blur if the camera shutter speed is too low for the motion being captured but thats not a frame rate issue simply a camera limitation.
Domestic video cameras typically use 1/50th of a second shutter speed which is too slow for fast moment. Faster shutter speeds can be used but available light and maximum lens aperture put limits on how fast shutter speeds can be.
Shutter speed can never be longer than the frame interval so high frame rates are impractical as there is normally just not enough available light for correct exposure. Pushing the ISO of the camera to compensate results in noise which is far more objectionable than a little motion blur.

50Hz as used by TV networks (60Hz in the US) is a good compromise, its captures sport very well and is good enough for other content where panning speeds cannot be planned, jitter is never a problem. When there is not enough available light the camera can use 25 progressive frames per second with 1/25th shutter speed with the video then encoded into 50i. This is very different to “true” interlaced source as there are only 25 motion updates per second and the deinterlacing technique is very different as the output is 25 progressive frames per second not 50 as with true interlaces source.


Incorrect or poor quality deinterlacing can also do tremendous damage to true interlaced source, but thats a display problem not a 50i problem.

Edited by Owen, 13 April 2012 - 10:39 AM.

[Alex]

 Owen, on 13 April 2012 - 10:33 AM, said:

After calibration the ST was very close to the VT, so close I doubt anyone could tell with the naked eye.
:
The 2011 GT only made sense if styling and feature’s where more important than picture quality, and for many people that is the case.

This isn't the case with 2012 models - VT and GT are close, but ST is further behind both - this from same people reviewing all three.

Quote

There is no interlaced refresh on flat panels ...

Don't know why you wrote all that stuff, it has little to do with what I stated. If the camera's recording fields, there's nothing that de-interlacing can do to bring back missing information lost due to a (reasonably) quick pan - that information's lost forever - de-interlacing (or interpolation) can't compensate. Anyways, the issue was about field sampling - that 50Hz is supposed to be sufficient - based on observation, I was saying that it isn't.

Edited by Alex, 13 April 2012 - 10:56 AM.

[Owen]

 Alex, on 13 April 2012 - 10:39 AM, said:

This isn't the case with 2012 models.

Its yet to be seen if the new GT performs any better than the new ST.

 Alex, on 13 April 2012 - 10:39 AM, said:

Don't know why you wrote all that stuff, it has little to do with what I stated. If the camera's recording fields, there's nothing that de-interlacing can do to bring back missing information lost due to a quick pan - that information's lost forever - de-interlacing (or interpolation) can't compensate. Anyways, the issue was about field sampling - that 50Hz is supposed to be sufficient - based on observation, I was saying that it isn't.

True 50i has the same temporal (time-motion) resolution as 50p, it deinterlaces to 50 distinctly different frames per second, each contain real motion information so motion is very smooth with no need for interpolation to help. If high shutter speeds where used (they normally aren't) motion blur would be minimal.
Its low shutter speed that causes motion blur NOT 50Hz frame rate. Try setting a still camera to 1/50th shutter speed and pan fast while taking a shot, the photo will be very blurred.

[TheFrog]

http://www.theelectr...Price=3155&MW=1

55in VT Panasonic for a cool 3k.

[miata]

 TheFrog, on 18 April 2012 - 08:45 AM, said:

http://www.theelectr...Price=3155&MW=1

55in VT Panasonic for a cool 3k.

That makes me even more excited about the 127cm ST, RRP is $1749, so $1400 might be a realistic expectation? A VT would be wonderful but not on my pension!

[Robbks]

 TheFrog, on 18 April 2012 - 08:45 AM, said:

55in VT Panasonic for a cool 3k.

nice...
so down to ~$2500 by Christmas... i might need a present for myself by then...

will wait for the second revision of firmware to hit them though :rofl:

and Question:
can you disable All 3D processing in any of the current Panasonic Plasma's..?

Edited by Robbks, 18 April 2012 - 11:01 AM.

[Owen]

Unless the TV is displaying 3D or converting 2D to 3D there is no "3D processing".
Changes where made to the panel design for 3D, mainly faster phosphors, but that cant be undone.