12 replies to this topic

[Cafad]

IC’s and Me.

After I had calmed down from my integrated shootout I was wondering what to do next.  There seems to be a fair bit of “debate” going on about interconnects, are the insanely expensive ones worth the price?  Is silver better than copper?  Does cryo treatment make for a better cable?
The only thing I could work out from all the chatter is that there is a lot of disagreement on the subject, so I figured it was time to check for myself.

The Contestants.
Osborn Silverlink
JW Audio Signature (cryo treated copper)
Redgum Audio Pipeline (copper, non-cryo)
The red, white and yellow Goblin (a cable that came with my old LCD tv and has no claim to any pedigree, for the purpose of this write up I am calling it the Goblin)
Tara brand IC’s (a Chinese knock off of some old Tara labs cables, using the same spec copper but with what look like Zindac plugs, I’ll call them TB’s as I’m sure Tara Labs would not want to be associated with them)

The Silverlinks and the Signatures are around the same price range, about $200, the Redgums retail at $100, the TB’s can be had for $42 (plus postage) out of Hong Kong via the net and no one pays for the Goblin it just shows up completely unconcerned as to whether it is wanted or not.

The Burson integrated won my integrated shootout so it was chosen for duty here.  My DAC has 2 sets of outputs so I could hook up 2 sets of cables and compare them directly with minimal switching time.  Unfortunately the Burson does not have a remote so I was forced to sit on the floor to switch back and forth, an indignity I was more than willing to suffer for the cause.  

First up, the Silverlink and the Signatures.
Several times I thought I heard a difference but when I switched over the difference I thought I had heard was right there waiting for me.  I sat through several cd’s like this, switching back and forth every 10 to 30 seconds and despite being certain I had picked the difference half a dozen times my final decision was that I could not tell the difference between the 2.  That was a bit disappointing!

Second up, Silverlinks and TB’s.
A repeat of the first attempt I am afraid, I could not pick any noticeable difference between the 2.

I could go on, but I won’t, there was no audible difference that I could detect between the Silverlinks and any of the other cables, even (and it galls me to admit this) the Goblin sounded just as good as the Silverlinks!  
I found myself blurting out words to the effect of “This cable stuff is an absolute crock!”  
My actual language was somewhat stronger than that, but you get the general idea.

So my head swam in “The cable companies are ripping us off!” land for a few days before I recovered enough to start thinking again.  The only thing I could think of that I might have done wrong was that I was not in my usual listening position so I might not have spotted any soundstage difference.  Alright, I swapped the Burson for the Krell (which has a remote) and went through the steps again.  Again, I found I could not tell the difference between any of the IC’s.  Oh dear!

It was at this point that I stopped for a while, had to clear my head, so I went for a full week without turning my cd player on.  Yes, that is how shaken up I was.  

I even went as far as to check the resistance of each cable with a multi-meter, every one came in at 0.9 ohms, this had me puzzled for a while as it was way above what a length of wire about 1 meter long should have (after some quick google-ing on the topic), until I held the two paddles of the multi-meter together and saw that it read 0.9 ohms, OK, so the resistance (and presumably the impedance) is below detection, no answer there then.

During that week I found myself wondering about speaker wire, I mean if I can’t tell one IC from another could I tell the difference between 2 sets of speaker wire.  I had my Osborn Datalinks (2.5m) on hand, and a pair of JW Audio Cryo Nova cables (8ft) to test out, so I gave them a go.  Again, no noticeable diff, though this was harder, and took longer, to decide since I had to unplug and plug-in rather than just switch between the two.

By this point I am seriously skeptical, it doesn’t seem to matter what I try the songs all sound the same.
Now I am a scientist by training and profession, and seriously curious by nature, and I absolutely hate to hit dead ends in anything I do.  This seemed to be a dead end, so I was determined to figure out/identify/find-something-to-blame to explain why I could not hear any difference in cabling.

Finally I realized I had to devise an ultimate test, if there was a difference to be heard what could I do to make it as obvious as possible?  
OK, all the stops get pulled out.  The Burson is good but maybe not good enough, so out went the Burson integrated, in came a Burson Pre and a Halcro power amp.  If these two can’t show me a noticeable change in sound quality or coloration then there just can’t be one!

Hang on though, that means another set of IC’s from the Pre to the Power amp, and I’m back to not having a remote so I have to sit on the floor and not in my usual listening position and if I do that can I really call it an ultimate test?  And if I have to get up and change the IC’s from the Pre to the Power amp as well then my acoustic memory is gong to be shot by the time I start listening again.  What could I do?

Stuff it, all the usual rules go out the window, I ran Silverlinks from the DAC through to the Halcro on the left channel and Signatures on the right channel, and then, just in case that wasn’t enough, I hooked up the Cryo Nova speaker wire to the right speaker and the Datalink to the left.  So what I had, in effect was an Osborn set up on the left and a JW Audio on the right.  So, confident that I could not go any further without violating a few physical laws, I sat down to start.

The first thing I noticed was that the music sounded good, really good.  I sat still with my eyes closed for about 90 seconds, this was not going to be easy.  Over the course of three songs, with beads of sweat running down my forehead, I slowly started to develop an opinion but it wasn’t until I started to move my head from left to right that I was certain.  The sweet spot for the highs and mids had moved to the right (by about a foot) while the sweet spot for the bass had shifted to the left (by maybe 6 inches).  This was not evident all the time and it was only really obvious with metallic sounds (triangles and cymbals mostly) but it was certainly noticeable.  After about the 6^th test song on the third cd I was certain, and once I had decided that I understood what I was hearing I laid my head back on the head rest and relaxed (stressful stuff this audio hobby!).  It was a few minutes later that I realized, if I was not paying attention, then I could not notice the difference at all and I was quite enjoying just sitting there listening to two speakers fed by completely different cable runs.  If you are not looking for a difference in this Franken-system I had set up you would not find one, it’s pretty subtle.

The opinion I have developed from the above craziness is this, if you like your sound with a little more “snap” in the highs and better definition with metallic sounds then Osborn (or silver) cables are for you, if you like the highs a little less emphasized (I can only guess that this  is the “rolled off” top end I have read about) and the bass a little more emphasized (a little less crisp and a little more smooth) then cryo cables are for you.  However I would not go and change out one set of IC’s and expect to hear a big change in your system, it just won’t happen.  And it certainly won’t make a bad system sound good, or a good system sound bad.

If I had to put a number on it, I would say the highs differ by about 3% and the bass by 1.5 to 2% with the overall difference about 2 to 2.5%.  A big difference, hell no, a noticeable difference, just barely!

This seems to fit with the industry hype, silver for the highs, copper for the lows and cryo has a slightly rolled off top end so I am happy with the results.
As for preferences I prefer my bass crisp to smooth and my highs defined rather than smoothed off so the cryo’s are out and will probably be for sale shortly.

Tomorrow morning it will be the Silverlinks vs the Gremlins and I pray I hear a difference there too.

Cheers!

[Cafad]

Silverlinks Vs Gremlins.
Yes, thankfully, I could spot a difference.  The Silverlinks handle bass decay more smoothly than the Gremlins, althought the initial drum impact or bass strum sounds pretty much the same.  Also the Gremlins lend guitar a slightly more edgey feel, almost as if there was a bit more feedback in use at the time.  Could I pick one from the other in a blind test?  The simple answer is no, the complex answer is, if I was listening to the calbes on my gear in my listening room and I could pick the music I think I could pick the difference in maybe 7 or 8 out of 10 tests.  And this is still using 2 cable runs of each, to and from the preamp (I removed the cryo speaker wires and replaced them with Datalinks so the speaker wires are now identical).
Next up, the Silverlinks vs the Regum Audio Pipelines, this afternoon if I can find the time.

Cheers.

[MLXXX]

Quote

Stuff it, all the usual rules go out the window, I ran Silverlinks from the DAC through to the Halcro on the left channel and Signatures on the right channel,

Cafad, on 26 February 2012 - 11:30 AM, said:

Silverlinks Vs Gremlins.
Yes, thankfully, I could spot a difference.  The Silverlinks handle bass decay more smoothly than the Gremlins, althought the initial drum impact or bass strum sounds pretty much the same.  Also the Gremlins lend guitar a slightly more edgey feel, almost as if there was a bit more feedback in use at the time.  Could I pick one from the other in a blind test?  The simple answer is no, the complex answer is, if I was listening to the calbes on my gear in my listening room and I could pick the music I think I could pick the difference in maybe 7 or 8 out of 10 tests.  And this is still using 2 cable runs of each, to and from the preamp (I removed the cryo speaker wires and replaced them with Datalinks so the speaker wires are now identical).

You could do a double blind test at home with your own music, gear, and listening room if you had a friend to help you. For example:

1. Control test: same interconnects connected to left channel of DAC output 1, and left channel of DAC output 2. Right channel not connected at all. Switch the amp input between DAC 1 and DAC 2.  If in a blind listening situation (i.e. without knowing the interconnects are the same - your friend does not tell you) you find you can actually hear a difference when the amp input is switched, that suggests a slight mismatch in levels or other performance of the equipment, but if this control test succeeds (i.e. you can hear no difference with the same interconnects) move to 2.

2. Same as 1 but different interconnects are used for the left channel. Right channel still not connected. Operator plays DAC 1, DAC 2, then DAC X_t for each trial number t in say a 10 trial test. X_t = 1 or 2, determined by referring to a random number table applying for each of the 10 trials.  Operator repeats DAC1, DAC2 and/or DACX_t as often as you like for each of the 10 trials until you are happy to give an answer for the particular trial.

This table (my apologies for poor formatting) shows the number of correct responses required for 95% confidence that favourable ABX results are not merely due to lucky guessing:

Results required for a 95% confidence level:
   Number of trials
10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
   Minimum number correct
9 9 10 10 11 12 12 13 13 14 15 15 16 16 17 18

Quoted from: http://en.wikipedia....test#Confidence

[Cafad]

Interesting idea MLXXX, but I wasn't trying to say anything like "I can now pick the Silverlinks from the Gremlins with certainty." I was trying to emphasize the point that even if I had full control of the situation I would still not be certain that I could tell them apart in a blind test.  That is how small the difference was!
I would be up for a blind test or two (though I must say now that I know how hard I will have to concentrate to pick the differences I am not particularly enthusiastic, far too much like work!) but unfortuneately for me neither my imediate, nor extended, family have any interest in my little obsession.  And now that I have been through the exercise above I would not expect to get to an 80% confidence level, let alone 95%.

I am going to continue, after all no reason to stop until I have gone through all the interconnects I have on hand, but it is really just for kicks.  I don't expect to hear anything major.
And on that note, the Silverlinks and Redgums have been compared and not only could I not detect any differences at all but I have to say that the quality and soundstage I could hear was up there with the best I have heard from my system.  I even swapped over from left to right, just in case I have one ear that is slightly out of wack with the other but there was no change to be heard.

[MLXXX]

Yes it can very hard to organise double blind tests and when the apparent differences are so small anyway it may not seem worth the trouble.

A few years ago I spent several hours trying to hear differences between a variety of high quality 24 bit audio files and derived dithered 16 bit versions of them (noise shaped dithering, ordinary recording and playback levels).  Despite sometimes imagining I could hear a difference, in the end I realised I could not, as borne out by ABX results of no better than chance.  [A thread on HydrogenAudio indicates this is normal for human hearing. 16 bits dithered is sufficient. See http://www.hydrogena...opic=49843&st=0 ]

[Cafad]

And lastly the TB's and the Silverlinks.  Also too close to call.
I'm afraid I just can't bring myself to advise people to use the free cables that come with TV's and DVD players, that just seems wrong.  Having said that however if you buy the most expensive cable in the shop to go with your swanky sound system then you are certainly wasting money, better off spending it on something else.  In fact just buy the cable in your favourite color, that way it will look nice and make you feel better.

And if believing that cryo cables are the best thing since sliced bread makes you happy, that's fine.
If anyone wants the cryo cables I used in the above test fire me off a PM, I won't be using them again, no matter how good they look.
Cheers!

[bbar]

Cafad, on 26 February 2012 - 06:51 PM, said:

And lastly the TB's and the Silverlinks.  Also too close to call.
I'm afraid I just can't bring myself to advise people to use the free cables that come with TV's and DVD players, that just seems wrong.  Having said that however if you buy the most expensive cable in the shop to go with your swanky sound system then you are certainly wasting money, better off spending it on something else.  In fact just buy the cable in your favourite color, that way it will look nice and make you feel better.

And if believing that cryo cables are the best thing since sliced bread makes you happy, that's fine.
If anyone wants the cryo cables I used in the above test fire me off a PM, I won't be using them again, no matter how good they look.
Cheers!

Well done!

Excellent reviews and very informative.

[Chicken Man]

I'm glad I'm not an audio purist !....... I would have slashed by wrists by now.


C.M

[Cafad]

No, no urge to self harm here.  This is only a hobby after all, any actions that put bloodstains on the carpet would be taking things too far.  The urge to open a beer however did hit me hard and fast during those last few comparisons.  Maybe if I'd found the fridge empty the thought would have crossed my mind, however it didn't happen so it's not worth worrying about.

[kaanage]

Cafad, on 25 February 2012 - 11:46 PM, said:

By this point I am seriously skeptical, it doesn’t seem to matter what I try the songs all sound the same.
Now I am a scientist by training and profession, and seriously curious by nature, and I absolutely hate to hit dead ends in anything I do.  This seemed to be a dead end, so I was determined to figure out/identify/find-something-to-blame to explain why I could not hear any difference in cabling.

I'm wondering about your thought process here. You seem to be hell bent on finding a difference because you believe that there should be one rather than taking the normal scientific detachment of seeing if one exists or not as well as how large any difference might be. The "dead end" that you speak of is just another one of the possible outcomes and going by pure electrical theory, it is the the most likely one.

I do applaud your conclusion, especially with respect to the 'Gremlin' cable - a lot of people would not have the honesty to say just how inconclusive they would find a comparison of interconnects. I also agree with MLXXX that a double blind test is the only way to be really sure when a sighted test is as inconclusive as this (plus that a WELL RECORDED AND MASTERED CD should be indistinguishable from DVD-A/SACD/other hi-res recording of the same music given the same playback device).

Edited by kaanage, 08 April 2012 - 08:49 AM.

[Drizt]

Good posts MLXXX and kaanage.

[Sydneysider]

Thanks Cafad. Good write up. I was wondering if my next upgrade would be cables, but I was a skeptic, so you've done all the hard work for me. I'd accept some small improvement is possible, but I'm not chasing the the last few % in my set up yet.

[Cafad]

Glad you found it useful Sydneysider, if you have saved a few $$ from reading about my efforts then that makes those efforts that much more worthwhile.

Kaanage, I like the idea of blind tests as much as anyone for proving "Golden Eared" people wrong, but we all do things our own way.  If I thought I could hear a massive change then I would be yelling "Bring on the blind test" but since I could barely hear any change at all I'd declare defeat before any blind test even started and save us all the trouble.

Cheers!