1121 replies to this topic

[diesel]

garysch37, on Jul 9 2011, 03:48 AM, said:

I've also observed behavior by my DVR that tells me it is not entirely digital, which could be the reason for many of these problems.  For example, editing out commercials has not been as digitally precise as doing something similar on my PC with video editing software.  Specifically, even though I place my start and end points for the cut on my DVR precisely (i.e. on specific frames), it includes many neighbouring frames in the result, and in playback it freezes on one of those neighbouring frames for about 1 second.  That tells me it's not a digital edit, not entirely.

Hi Gary.
What you have observed could be entirely down to how the unit records content onto the HDD. For example, it may be recording the data in small files (eg 32MB) and therefore each edit would include an entire 32MB file, not just part of it, hence you may 'lose' some granularity with your edits.

[pgdownload]

garysch37, on Jul 9 2011, 03:48 AM, said:

But I suspect it's not an isolated issue, but rather not only is it this entire harddrive model that's at fault, but all DVR/PVR harddrives might be shitty compared to PC harddrives

Harddrives in a DVDRs/PVR are the same (i.e. same make, brand and models)  as in a PC. Most DVDRs don't allow you to replace the drives, but most PVRs do. Its pretty routine for users to take the lid off a PVR and put in a large drive.

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Are we just talking about the difference in dollars?

Not really. More just processing power.

As a bit of background. DVDRs and PVRs handle recording quite differently.

A DVDR basically converts the signal it receives into a compressed format. That's why you can specify things like LP or NP or XP on a DVDR as its just a matter of how much compression is applied (and obviously the more compression the lower the picture quality (PQ))

A PVR however converts nothing. It just takes the digital stream 100% as it is broadcast and records it straight to its harddrive. So almost no processing is required. So the PQ is 100% unchanged and the file sizes are also quite huge (A PVR fills up an old fashioned floppy disc every second it records). Processing is only required when then playing the recording when the digital stream is converted into something your TV can display.

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So now both DVR/PVR and HTPC are themselves only a temporary measure until all broadcast TV ceases to exist

Broadcast TV has a long way to go before it ceases to exist IMO. I agree its likely that Cloud TV will be the next big approach however I would expect that local recording devices will still sit in the home to play back content.

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My main point is that temporary measures will always suck, and by that I mean manufacturers will not put much effort into them.  Am I wrong?

Thh VCR temporary', the DVD was 'temporary', so to all other recording technologies. It still didn't mean huge amounts of effort and money weren't spent improving the technologies while they were popular. PVRs have had a unusual genesis though as they have been mostly marketed by small start up companies rather than the usual Big Brand names with million dollar research departments.

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I've also observed behaviour by my DVR that tells me it is not entirely digital

There are two answers to that. One is that the file stored on the harddrive is in a digital format (ie 101010011111). However the format of the file is analogue as mentioned above. The digital broadcast has been converted and compressed into an analogue format. As for where cuts are made - both DVDRs and PVRs are seldom frame precise. This is because of the processing power required. In many instances the use 'kludges' like diesel mentioned to speed up the process.

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wondering whether this end result of my edits is due to an anti-anti-advertising measure.

Nope. DVDRs have no ability to work out what is an ad and what isn't in a recording - its all just a bunch of pictures and noise to them.

Ultimately a DVDR offers the advantage of being able to record and burn DVDs in a stand alone box. A PVR has a better quality recording and you can usually easily transfer files to a PC for frame accurate editing if desired.

Regards

Peter Gillespie

Edited by pgdownload, 13 July 2011 - 09:37 AM.

[garysch37]

Thanks very much diesel & Peter!  I don't know why I've remained so ignorant of this technology, especially since it's so important to me.  But I thank you for answering all my questions and educating me.

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recording the data in small files (eg 32MB)

This makes perfect sense since it relates to how computers have stored files in sector chunks.  Though I suspect different DVDRs do it in different ways.  For example, my brother *appears* to have frame-by-frame editing capability, so perhaps his DVDR pads the rest of a file with black.  I dunno.

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converts the signal it receives into a compressed format

I guess considering that it's all done in real time, I should be grateful that DVDRs work period.  And I didn't know that PVRs don't compress.  No wonder they're made to easily replace the hard drive for a much bigger one.

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Broadcast TV has a long way to go before it ceases to exist

Do you think so.  I know, technology moves much slower than we ever think.  I mean, new products, with small changes, move like crazy.  But the big changes take a long time.  I guess it's more my hatred of the broadcast format that fuels my wishes.  I remember back in the mid-80s, Nicholas Negroponte, founder of MIT's Media Lab in the U.S. (the number one lab for innovation and computer/technology innovation in the world back then), was talking about narrowcasting right down to the individual (which is basically cloud TV).  Right then, when I read that paper, I started salivating for the end of broadcasting.

I can see the television networks still surviving by moving their own programming to the cloud, in effect giving each network their own cloud.  So if you want to see the latest episode of Doctor Who, you would go to the BBC Cloud.  But broadcast TV and cloud TV will probably both exist at the same time for a long time.

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The VCR [was] 'temporary', the DVD was 'temporary', so to all other recording technologies. It still didn't mean huge amounts of effort and money weren't spent improving the technologies while they were popular. PVRs have had a unusual genesis though as they have been mostly marketed by small start up companies rather than the usual Big Brand names with million dollar research departments.

I don't know.  Every technology company had many different VCR models, DVD models, etc., and the stores were filled with them.  DVDR/PVRs in comparison are hard to find in stores, and I don't think that's because they're new.  The lastest statistics show that DVDR/PVR penetration into the homes in different markets is quite high already:  42% in Australia (OzTAM), 40% in the U.S. (Nielsen) and 50% in the U.K. (Deloitte)!  Instead, there are just very few manufacturers (and like you say, they're mostly small) who make this product, and then only very few models.  That is really weird to me.  I don't understand it.  The only way I could explain it to myself is to say that everyone knows it's really temporary, much more temporary than any other technology.

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wondering whether this end result of my edits is due to an anti-anti-advertising measure.

Nope. DVDRs have no ability to work out what is an ad and what isn't in a recording - its all just a bunch of pictures and noise to them.

I didn't mean that the machine can detect what's an ad and what's not.  I just thought it assumes every "Delete Part" edit is to remove an ad, so let's make sure part of that ad is still in there, by appearing to be not frame-precise.  But I now tend to believe diesel and the file chunk theory.

Thanks again, guys,
Gary

[pgdownload]

garysch37, on Jul 16 2011, 04:01 AM, said:

I don't know.  Every technology company had many different VCR models, DVD models, etc., and the stores were filled with them.  DVDR/PVRs in comparison are hard to find in stores, and I don't think that's because they're new.  The lastest statistics show that DVDR/PVR penetration into the homes in different markets is quite high already:  42% in Australia (OzTAM), 40% in the U.S. (Nielsen) and 50% in the U.K. (Deloitte)!  Instead, there are just very few manufacturers (and like you say, they're mostly small) who make this product, and then only very few models.  That is really weird to me.  I don't understand it.  The only way I could explain it to myself is to say that everyone knows it's really temporary, much more temporary than any other technology.

Its weird to me as well. I've tracked PVRs for over a decade and so its hard for me to get a fix on what the lay person knows of them. I do know that DVDRs are much less radical than PVRs to lay people. This is because they are basically VCRs that use DVDs instead of tapes. Also importantly, DVDRs we're initially analogue, while PVRs where basically digital. This meant to replace a VCR all you had to do was plug in a DVDR and everything else was unchanged. A PVR introduced new 'issues'.

IMO TV will move to the cloud for many households over the next decade (if only as a supplementary capacity - movies, missed shows, etc.). As Apple has shown the future is in charging a few bucks a show and the advertising model will now morph into ads being increasingly embedded in shows.

Regards

Peter Gillespie

[prl]

On the precision of editing - I suspect it's more to do with the way MPEG2 digital TV is encoded. Only about every 16 or so frames of a digital recording is a complete image (an I-frame). The others are differences between the last I-frame and the current frame (P-frames). That means there's only one complete image about every 2/3 sec.

It's much simpler to do editing if you only allow edits on I-frame boundaries (otherwise you have to insert reconstructed I-frames at the end of each edited-out segment).

32MB file chunks are about 50sec of SD and about 25sec of HD (assuming ~5Mb/s for SD and 10Mb/s for HD). You'd really notice it if editing accuracy was that coarse!

Beyonwiz uses 32MB file chunks, but that doesn't limit its editing accuracy to 32MB boundaries.

[TORB]

I have an intermittent tuning/reception problem with my Wiz DP-P2.

The aerial cable goes into the Wiz first and then out to the TV.

All will be fine and then suddenly the signal goes wacky. I have checked the details and the strength is OK, but the quality may drop a few percent, or all the way to 0% and sometimes it reverts to Unlocked. When it happens, it happens on all channels, not just one. It does not happen when watching straight TV, so it must be a Wiz problem.

To fix it, I have found that sometimes turning the Wiz off and back on fixes it, but not always. Tonight when it started playing up I hit the pause button for a minute or two and that fixed the problem.

Any suggestions as to possible causes or fixes please?

Cheers
Ric

[prl]

It sounds like either a tuner problem or interference. You can check for a tuner problem (but not completely definitively) by starting two recordings and looking at one channel you're recording and then the other. If only one is affected, then it may be a tuner problem. Problems with the power supply may also affect the tuner, but that would probably affect both, so this test wouldn't help with that.

Interference is more difficult to check for, but it's a possibility when you have good signal strength and poor signal quality, though I'm not sure why it would affect the Beyonwiz and not the TV. Do you have a newer "digital" antenna? Is the TV analog or digital?

Does it help with the Beyonwiz problem if you temporarily disconnect the TV antenna connection at the Beyonwiz end?

Have you tried calling Beyonwiz support?

[TORB]

prl, on Jul 20 2011, 07:26 PM, said:

It sounds like either a tuner problem or interference. You can check for a tuner problem (but not completely definitively) by starting two recordings and looking at one channel you're recording and then the other. If only one is affected, then it may be a tuner problem. Problems with the power supply may also affect the tuner, but that would probably affect both, so this test wouldn't help with that.

Interference is more difficult to check for, but it's a possibility when you have good signal strength and poor signal quality, though I'm not sure why it would affect the Beyonwiz and not the TV. Do you have a newer "digital" antenna? Is the TV analog or digital?

Does it help with the Beyonwiz problem if you temporarily disconnect the TV antenna connection at the Beyonwiz end?

Have you tried calling Beyonwiz support?

When there is a problem, I can flick between stations and its a problem with every station.

The TV is digital and the antenna is old, but has never caused problems before...... and if it was the antenna, surely it would affect the TV as well.

I figured I would ask to see if anyone had any ideas before I contacted Beyonwiz.

Cheers
Ric

[warkus]

TORB, on Jul 20 2011, 07:44 PM, said:

When there is a problem, I can flick between stations and its a problem with every station.

The TV is digital and the antenna is old, but has never caused problems before...... and if it was the antenna, surely it would affect the TV as well.

I figured I would ask to see if anyone had any ideas before I contacted Beyonwiz.

Cheers
Ric

Hi Ric,

Can you try something for me. Turn your wiz off, then turn on and just "watch" TV only, one channel, dont change channels from what it came onto when you powered it on. Make sure no timers are set to come on during this test. If fact dont use the remote at all.

Leave it there for a minute and hopefully all will be well with the picture.

Then press the record button and kick off an instant recording on the channel you are watching.

Then switch to a second channel using your remote and see if things start to go banana's. If so I may know what it is, lets see how you go with that test first.

Mark

[TORB]

warkus, on Jul 20 2011, 10:18 PM, said:

Hi Ric,

Can you try something for me. Turn your wiz off, then turn on and just "watch" TV only, one channel, dont change channels from what it came onto when you powered it on. Make sure no timers are set to come on during this test. If fact dont use the remote at all.

Leave it there for a minute and hopefully all will be well with the picture.

Then press the record button and kick off an instant recording on the channel you are watching.

Then switch to a second channel using your remote and see if things start to go banana's. If so I may know what it is, lets see how you go with that test first.

Mark

Hi Mark,

Thanks for the destructions which I followed faithfully. It behaved itself.

Being intermittent, it is a pain to diagnose. Last night mucked up a few times over about 15 minutes. Turning on and off, or hitting pause etc fixed it, and then the rest of the night it was OK. The problem is without some level of interaction by me to stop it, once it starts it just keeps going.

Cheers
Ric

[prl]

TORB, on Jul 21 2011, 05:38 PM, said:

Hi Mark,

Thanks for the destructions which I followed faithfully. It behaved itself.

Being intermittent, it is a pain to diagnose. Last night mucked up a few times over about 15 minutes. Turning on and off, or hitting pause etc fixed it, and then the rest of the night it was OK. The problem is without some level of interaction by me to stop it, once it starts it just keeps going.

Cheers
Ric

I'm not entirely convinced that your actions on the Beyonwiz and the return to normal are linked. If it's interference, it may simply be that sometime when you are trying to correct the problem, the source of the interference stops. The main problem with the interference theory is the the TV doesn't seem to be affected by it.

If you make a recording while it's having reception problems is the recording OK? (Unlikely, but worth checking).

Have you tried disconnecting the antenna connection between the Beyonwiz and the TV to see if that helps with the problem?

[G.Bentley]

I have a Panasonic SD DMR-EX79 about 3 years old and the DVD recorder component seems to be on the way out - after finalization, i'm getting 'Unsuccessful' message (recording to and playing from HDD is fine).  The DVD still plays discs OK though.  My local tech tells me that Panasonic spares are exorbitantly expensive - probably $300+.  Had a similar DVD recorder failure on an old VCR-DVD combo - they are definitely the weakest component.

We use it as a SD-DTB for our old large-screen analog TV and don't want to upgrade to HDTV just yet.  Family likes to record old movies and save to DVDs.

What are my best options?  
I have broadband internet with a wifi router, so NAS storage and an external DVD recorder attached to the computer seems like an option.  
What are my options at the TV end for bi-directional operation, ie. record to NAS/PC/DVD and play from same?
Is a Bluray player with DLNA and ethernet connectivity the way to go?

Are the internet through the house power-line adapters a workable way of getting internet connectivity to a TV located device (I don't want ethernet cables across the room)?

[DrP]

G.Bentley, on Aug 2 2011, 03:35 PM, said:

Are the internet through the house power-line adapters a workable way of getting internet connectivity to a TV located device (I don't want ethernet cables across the room)?

They work well enough with a few conditions.  Try to have them on the same circuit and definitely do not have them plugged into any sort of filter (including a power board with a filter built in).

[pgdownload]

I'd probably recommend buying a PVR that allows you to either record directly to or transfer recordings to an external hard drive. That way you could easily transfer movies to a PC everynow and again (1 SD movie is ~3Gb). Then you could use some much better software to author your DVDs and burn on the PC (For example VideoRedo)

Alternatively, Buy a 20m ethernet cable. Then once a week roll it out and connect the TV and PVR and download files.

A NAS is great as a storage device that uses almost no power but you'd probably want it connected via cable. I also don't think there are any PVRs that record directly to a NAS (there are plenty that can stream files saved on a NAS though). Note that if you go the NAS route then burning DVDs should become irrelevant. YOu just transfer any recordings to a NAS and then they're available for playing anytime.

Two possible PVRs you might be interested in are the BW Lite and MagicTV (non-Freeview version available here)

Regards

Peter Gillespie

[Tassie Devil]

pgdownload, on Aug 3 2011, 09:34 AM, said:

I'd probably recommend buying a PVR that allows you to either record directly to or transfer recordings to an external hard drive. That way you could easily transfer movies to a PC everynow and again (1 SD movie is ~3Gb). Then you could use some much better software to author your DVDs and burn on the PC (For example VideoRedo)

Alternatively, Buy a 20m ethernet cable. Then once a week roll it out and connect the TV and PVR and download files.

A NAS is great as a storage device that uses almost no power but you'd probably want it connected via cable. I also don't think there are any PVRs that record directly to a NAS (there are plenty that can stream files saved on a NAS though). Note that if you go the NAS route then burning DVDs should become irrelevant. YOu just transfer any recordings to a NAS and then they're available for playing anytime.

Two possible PVRs you might be interested in are the BW Lite and MagicTV (non-Freeview version available here)

Regards

Peter Gillespie

That is good advice Peter (as usual).

I'm VERY surprised at how good the MAGIC (hate the name) PVR has turned out.  For some time now I've resolutely stuck to Topfield as being the most ergonomic PVR but now hand the title over to the Magic.  It labels most of the files set by EPG accurately, certainly more so than other PVRs experienced (except the Wintal - that was a good little SD PVR) and the only feature I miss is PIP, and that is used rarely anyway.  At its present price it is a steal.  Highly recommended.

John

[prl]

Tassie Devil, on Aug 3 2011, 10:12 AM, said:

...  For some time now I've resolutely stuck to Topfield as being the most ergonomic PVR but now hand the title over to the Magic.  It labels most of the files set by EPG accurately, certainly more so than other PVRs experienced (except the Wintal - that was a good little SD PVR) ...

My Beyonwizes very rarely mislabel recordings .

Edited by prl, 05 August 2011 - 12:32 PM.

[diesel]

prl, on Aug 5 2011, 12:32 PM, said:

My Beyonwizes very rarely mislabel recordings .

I don't think my two Wizzes have ever labeled a recording off the EPG incorrectly???

[prl]

diesel, on Aug 5 2011, 02:46 PM, said:

I don't think my two Wizzes have ever labeled a recording off the EPG incorrectly???

I've had a couple, but I was never sure whether the problem was the Beyonwiz or IceTV.

[Tassie Devil]

prl, on Aug 5 2011, 03:03 PM, said:

I've had a couple, but I was never sure whether the problem was the Beyonwiz or IceTV.

So what does determine the label of the file?  I'm guessing the software on many PVRs lazily uses the name of the program on first fire up of the timer -> inaccuracies because so often programs run late.  A more accurate label would result if it detected which program was being recorded 15 mins or so after the timer fires.  Or why cannot they use the name of the file tagged via EPG?

John

[prl]

Tassie Devil, on Aug 5 2011, 03:21 PM, said:

So what does determine the label of the file?  I'm guessing the software on many PVRs lazily uses the name of the program on first fire up of the timer -> inaccuracies because so often programs run late.  A more accurate label would result if it detected which program was being recorded 15 mins or so after the timer fires.  Or why cannot they use the name of the file tagged via EPG?

John

I think on IceTV it just uses the name of the recording that you use to set the timer from IceTV. I suspect it's similar for recordings set from the EPG. I'm less sure about recordings set by entering a start time and duration, especially if that doesn't align with an EPG entry.

[Paul55]

I'm with Peter on this one.
I'm pretty sure it uses the name selected from the EPG.
Even if you set pre-padding (universal, or from within a TAP for Toppies) the title is still correct.
If you manually set times that don't correspond with program times (for padding), I can see this would result in inaccurate file names.
I like John's idea of naming the file after 5 minutes (for manually set timers), but wonder if;
a. It is possible, and
b. If it could introduce unintended consequences.
Still, I can't remember the last time I used a manual timer thanks to IceTV (on Toppy and Beyonwizes) and JustEPG on the Toppy (where I set most short notice/one off recordings). Both these solutions can be done from my PC without turning on the TV or, more importantly, interrupting Mrs 55's viewing.

Edited by Paul55, 05 August 2011 - 05:47 PM.

[Megilu]

I have installed an Onix 500GB PVR Twin Tuner today, (I Know it's cheap) never had a pvr before,( no problems with reception on TV when I check with coaxial cable direct to the tele), BUT I have used a HDMI plugged from the TV to the pvr, I have the sound and picture , but the reception from the pvr with the HDMI the sound and picture is pixellating and the audio breaks, goes off for less than a second, but the audio will keeping do it, and the tv pixellates, gives me the pips!! ,! I have connected the loop in to loop out, the coaxial to the pvr,and the tv/vcr cable to the tv. I thought I had it all fixed, the sound and pixellating is driving me insane. Hope you can help me..Thanks from a old lady... hehe

Edited by Megilu, 08 September 2011 - 03:08 PM.

[pgdownload]

Your problem is a reception one (which is just the coax antenna cable from the wall to your PVR). It seems the TV tuner is a bit more capable than the PVR one. Note that unlike analogue reception (that just gets steadily and slowly worse as the signal reduces, digital is largely perfect or non existent (eg a 74% signal strength might look 100% while 73% pixilates horribly and 72% is a blank screen).

You might want to check out the loop cable is working/in correctly. One way to check is to take it out all together (just have the aerial in). Then boot up the PVR and see what sort of picture you get. If its fine then fine. If there's nothing (or 'no signal' shown) then do the following:

1) Start a recording. In general there should be a big red button on the remote (possibly labelled REC). Just hit it twice.

2) Change to another commercial channel (eg if you were on 7 then change to 10 etc.) - just hit channel up on the remote a few times.

Again look at the picture and see how it is (it might be 'no signal' if you had signal before, or it might be fine etc.)

Let us know what you see.

Regards

Peter Gillespie

[Megilu]

pgdownload, on Sep 8 2011, 03:01 PM, said:

Your problem is a reception one (which is just the coax antenna cable from the wall to your PVR). It seems the TV tuner is a bit more capable than the PVR one. Note that unlike analogue reception (that just gets steadily and slowly worse as the signal reduces, digital is largely perfect or non existent (eg a 74% signal strength might look 100% while 73% pixilates horribly and 72% is a blank screen).

You might want to check out the loop cable is working/in correctly. One way to check is to take it out all together (just have the aerial in). Then boot up the PVR and see what sort of picture you get. If its fine then fine. If there's nothing (or 'no signal' shown) then do the following:

1) Start a recording. In general there should be a big red button on the remote (possibly labelled REC). Just hit it twice.

2) Change to another commercial channel (eg if you were on 7 then change to 10 etc.) - just hit channel up on the remote a few times.

Again look at the picture and see how it is (it might be 'no signal' if you had signal before, or it might be fine etc.)

Let us know what you see.

Regards

Peter Gillespie

Thank you for your help Peter. I have taken out every cable except for the coaxial cable from the wall, and the HDMI, they are the only two cables attached to the pvr, It did record before, I have turned it off, and rebooted again. The picture and sound can  be quite clear, but then, that crackle,and the same sound as before.
It has me tossed, I am just about pulling my hair out...lol

I have done what you suggested, and plugged the loop in and loop out again, hit the rec twice and it has recorded, I then changed the program from SC10, to Prime7. Both of the stations are doing the same, pixellating and hesitate of sound(just a half a sec,if that) just keeps doing it continually.)SC is recording, and I am watching 7..So frustrating..I realise it is cheap, $99, but it will record,and I can then change channel to another one whilst I am recording.I am so disappointed, unless it is something to do with the fitting on the pvr, when I connect the cables.. I have also purchased a new coax cable and used that now, and it is still doing the same I think I must have purchased a brumby..knowing my luck!

Well, I have tried the Onix on the bedroom tv, which I have a TVICO has been terrific, BUT when I disconnected the TVICO and tried the Onix, guess what? The same thing happened to the Onix and tv in the bedroom. It is abviously a problem with the darn thing, as I have never had this problem before with the TVICO or any other item.I have reconnected my DVDR and have had no problem with it at all. Proves it must be something not right with the ONIX..Looks like it will have to be returned .

Edited by Megilu, 08 September 2011 - 07:05 PM.

[pgdownload]

Megilu, on Sep 8 2011, 05:22 PM, said:

Proves it must be something not right with the ONIX..Looks like it will have to be returned .

Agree. You could try an exchange or possibly look to spend a bit more. At $99 you're entering the ultra cheap zone of PVRs that does adhere to the maxim you get what you pay for.

Regards

Peter Gillespie