33 replies to this topic

[mgaleano]

Just wondering if anyone has tried connecting their Iphone into the car and listen to a streaming radio station. Does it break up easily?

[DrP]

Some time ago during one of a certain well know forum member's exposés on just how little he really understood I took it upon myself to perform a test as I drove around regional / remote Queensland.  It worked quite acceptably.  There were pauses at times where mobile reception was poor but given the distances from the base stations that wasn't particularly surprising.  Another forum member tried it too and also had good results.  The determining factor in how poor mobile reception affects the audio comes down to the stream type.  If its http (which is most internet radio) you might get occasional pauses if the players buffer underruns in adverse reception areas.  If its UDP based you'll get gaps rather than pauses.

The general concensus is that it works, comparable with broadcast digital radio.  Coverage is obviously far superior to current digital radio situation.

[mgaleano]

DrP, on Dec 3 2011, 10:07 PM, said:

Some time ago during one of a certain well know forum member's exposés on just how little he really understood I took it upon myself to perform a test as I drove around regional / remote Queensland.  It worked quite acceptably.  There were pauses at times where mobile reception was poor but given the distances from the base stations that wasn't particularly surprising.  Another forum member tried it too and also had good results.  The determining factor in how poor mobile reception affects the audio comes down to the stream type.  If its http (which is most internet radio) you might get occasional pauses if the players buffer underruns in adverse reception areas.  If its UDP based you'll get gaps rather than pauses.

The general concensus is that it works, comparable with broadcast digital radio.  Coverage is obviously far superior to current digital radio situation.

Yes with all these "iphone apps" around, and once download limits increase, I think this may become the long term successful version of digital radio. Being able to download audio highlights too, easily from your phone, you cannot easily do that with a "normal" DAB+ radio.

I don't mind DAB+ but stations seem to be promoting as much as or more, the online streaming than advertising digital radio. Esp the iphone apps, there has been a surge in promotion. I wonder if more people are listening to radio via the internet (esp with iphone apps) than tuning into DAB+ radios.

Edited by mgaleano, 03 December 2011 - 09:43 PM.

[DrP]

I think more people are listening to internet radio and / or downloading programming from the internet [pod casts etc] and listening to them.  It seems that CRA does too.  This is why CRA is pressing for changes to the broadcasting rules to "level the playing field" and other like euphemisms.  It's why the broadcasters themselves are pressing CRA to include internet radio listening habits in listener numbers.

It's really only a few hangers on that are trying to save face that say anything to the contrary.

[Digital Penetration]

DrP, on Dec 4 2011, 06:18 AM, said:

It's why the broadcasters themselves are pressing CRA to include internet radio listening habits in listener numbers.

The music survey the ABC is conducting atm asks if you listen to AM/FM broadcast, podcasts, streaming via the internet or on digital radio. I hope the results are made public.

Edited by Digital Penetration, 04 December 2011 - 08:06 AM.

[mgaleano]

DrP, on Dec 4 2011, 06:18 AM, said:

I think more people are listening to internet radio and / or downloading programming from the internet [pod casts etc] and listening to them.  It seems that CRA does too.  This is why CRA is pressing for changes to the broadcasting rules to "level the playing field" and other like euphemisms.  It's why the broadcasters themselves are pressing CRA to include internet radio listening habits in listener numbers.

It's really only a few hangers on that are trying to save face that say anything to the contrary.

When you think about reception becomes only limited to where the mobile tower is. An issue with AM/FM digital is reception indoors. Whilst Mobile reception is not perfect inside it does a lot better that DAB and AM radio.

I wonder when TV stations will stream live on the web? It will make free to air TV truly portable. At the moment it is limited to this Optus TV thing with allows you to record shows and watch.

[dkint3]

mgaleano, on Dec 4 2011, 06:12 PM, said:

I wonder when TV stations will stream live on the web? It will make free to air TV truly portable. At the moment it is limited to this Optus TV thing with allows you to record shows and watch.

Last summer, I think you could stream Nine's cricket broadcast via Vodafone...
I think it was $5 a month or something for unlimited live streaming..

But it would have been hard to watch it for long on a 3 inch screen..
Will be interesting whether the same offer becomes available this summer now that there are iPads and other tablets with 3G that could access it (though the bitrate would need to be higher to make it watchable on the larger screens).

[Trigg]

Tune In Radio through my iPhone connected to my head unit works a treat!  No breakup issues in Perth Metro on Telstra!

[alanh]

Trigg,
Have you tried receiving DAB+ in a car with a proper external antenna?
Perth is substantially flat sand plain with the DAB+ transmitters in Welshpool Rd Carmel which is well above the flat sand plain!

AlanH

[Trigg]

alanh, on Dec 15 2011, 09:41 AM, said:

Trigg,
Have you tried receiving DAB+ in a car with a proper external antenna?
Perth is substantially flat sand plain with the DAB+ transmitters in Welshpool Rd Carmel which is well above the flat sand plain!

AlanH

No,  But thinking about getting one of these installed soon http://www.orioncara...0312_avr6.1.htm

[alanh]

Trigg,
That car radio will give the system a good test, particularly on West Coast Highway between Trigg and Scarborough.

AlanH

[digitalj]

DrP, on Dec 3 2011, 10:07 PM, said:

Some time ago during one of a certain well know forum member's exposés on just how little he really understood I took it upon myself to perform a test as I drove around regional / remote Queensland.  It worked quite acceptably.  There were pauses at times where mobile reception was poor but given the distances from the base stations that wasn't particularly surprising.  Another forum member tried it too and also had good results.  The determining factor in how poor mobile reception affects the audio comes down to the stream type.  If its http (which is most internet radio) you might get occasional pauses if the players buffer underruns in adverse reception areas.  If its UDP based you'll get gaps rather than pauses.

The general concensus is that it works, comparable with broadcast digital radio.  Coverage is obviously far superior to current digital radio situation.

I think what you meant here was TCP. I.e. it can be either UDP or TCP.

[DrP]

digitalj, on Dec 18 2011, 10:49 PM, said:

I think what you meant here was TCP. I.e. it can be either UDP or TCP.

No, I meant HTTP.  Most are carried via HTTP (which of course implies TCP).  Some are RTMP (which could be TCP but is usually UDP).

[GoForMoe]

Trigg, on Dec 18 2011, 10:17 PM, said:

No,  But thinking about getting one of these installed soon http://www.orioncara...0312_avr6.1.htm

I wouldn't buy any product that is only shown as a drawing.

Something important when considering in car DAB+ vs 3G internet radio streaming is the ongoing cost of 3G compared to the upfront cost of DAB. 3G with enough data to stream for most commutes is a $10-20 dataplan (for around 1GB usage which works out to be around 2 hours driving while listening to a 64kbps stream on weekdays per month). The highway network is covered with 3G in most parts of the country, as are most inner suburban areas, while DAB+ can be patchy (especially if you drive in to the city from outside a coverage area). DAB+ on the other hand has a very expensive up front receiver cost - the cheapest entry is a $200 Pure Highway, with >$300 for basic head units.

Of course the easy winner is FM, but you lose choice.

[alanh]

Goformoe,

Quote

I wouldn't buy any product that is only shown as a drawing.

Go to Keilor Park and have a listen at the real thing. It was designed and is being produced there.
Its been on the market for 8 months.

JB Hifi sell them. I do not know if they have a working model at their store in  Market Square, Yarra Plaza, Cnr Malop St & Moorabool St, Geelong, 3220 VIC Phone (03) 5221 0766.

Telstra's Maximise your reception
Next G Coverage areas

AlanH

Edited by alanh, 20 December 2011 - 01:25 AM.

[DrP]

Despite attempts to spin it to the contrary (yes, he's defying reality again), Telstra mobile data services go places DAB+ hasn't even dreamt of.  Mobile data is most certainly available everywhere that DAB+ is, and given the lengths commercial radio has gone to prevent the dreaded out of area reception, its more reliable at the edges of those areas too.

[GoForMoe]

alanh, on Dec 20 2011, 01:46 AM, said:

JB Hifi sell them. I do not know if they have a working model at their store in  Market Square, Yarra Plaza, Cnr Malop St & Moorabool St, Geelong, 3220 VIC Phone (03) 5221 0766.

Holy crap! I didn't know there was a JB Hifi in Geelong!

Quote

Telstra's Maximise your reception
Next G Coverage areas

So my point is proven then? Telstra's coverage is fantastic and you could use an external antenna to improve that further. DAB+ on the other hand falls short - even within the licence area (even worse in Sydney and Brisbane); and is an impossible thing for the many commuters coming in from regional areas (FM and AM signals are usually strong enough to last the whole of a commute, and as we've demonstrated 3G is too).

[alanh]

Goformoe,
So the AVR6.1 is hardly a line drawing!!!

The current transmissions of DAB+ are not supposed to cover regional areas so how is this relevant.
Coverage area maps
Considering that Geelong has its own licence area iand not Melbourne's it is not surprising that you get poor coverage.

Having looked at the coverage area maps, I would not go to JB in Geelong as they should not have digital receivers being out of the coverage area.


You will note that once you leave the eastern seaboard there is incomplete coverage of main highways such as the Eyre and Stuart Highways.

The maps assume you are using a mobile phone with a blue tick outside.  Since the metalwork of the car shields stops all signals so the maps assume you are using a car kit.

In 2013 all major European car makers will be installing DAB/DAB+/DMB sound car radios as standard equipment, then this discussion will soon become would you listen on the phone at the prices quoted, when you can listen to FM or AM for free!

AlanH

Edited by alanh, 20 December 2011 - 11:17 AM.

[DrP]

By golly.  I think he will reach China afterall.  

[GoForMoe]

alanh, on Dec 20 2011, 12:11 PM, said:

Goformoe,
So the AVR6.1 is hardly a line drawing!!!

Until someone shows a photo of a real one I have no reason to believe it exists, and even then it could just be photoshopped.

Quote

The current transmissions of DAB+ are not supposed to cover regional areas so how is this relevant.
Coverage area maps
Considering that Geelong has its own licence area iand not Melbourne's it is not surprising that you get poor coverage.

Compare:
Brisbane Licence Area - Brisbane DAB+ Coverage
Sydney Licence Area - Sydney DAB+ Coverage

Now, just to make it 100% clear, I'm not talking about Geelong, I'm talking about people who live within the licence areas who cannot receive DAB+. And with urban sprawl, a very large number of listeners need to commute from those outer suburbs with no or patchy DAB+ coverage. Compare with the mobile coverage maps again and there is no contest between the two.

Quote

Having looked at the coverage area maps, I would not go to JB in Geelong as they should not have digital receivers being out of the coverage area.

I can assure you that JB in Geelong do sell DAB+ radios, just like Dick Smith in Geelong, Retravision in Geelong, the Good Guys in Geelong, Harvey Norman in Geelong, Aldi in Geelong, Target in Geelong, Big W in Geelong and Jaycar in Geelong do.

Quote

You will note that once you leave the eastern seaboard there is incomplete coverage of main highways such as the Eyre and Stuart Highways.

There is a long term government program to cover all major highways in the nation with mobile coverage. All the networks are signed on and are making improvements.

Quote

In 2013 all major European car makers will be installing DAB/DAB+/DMB sound car radios as standard equipment,

European car makers in Europe. It remains to be seen if that will carry across here. Likewise, those are very expensive premium models. If a Polo comes over here with DAB+ standard I'd be shocked.

Quote

then this discussion will soon become would you listen on the phone at the prices quoted, when you can listen to FM or AM for free!

Why not hum?

[alanh]

Goformoe,
If you don't believe it go and look and listen to a real one. As I said it was designed and is manufactured in Melbourne. The radios now being installed in Hino trucks look very similar. The AVR6.1 is in the JB website with a price, they are hardly likely to try and sell a line drawing!!

Once the Geelong, Lookout Hill, Mt Tassie, Mt Alexander transmitters start transmitting the problem you quote will go away. There is similar situations in Cental Coast, Katoomba and Illawarra in NSW and Gold Coast, Toowoomba and Sunshine Coast. All of these areas already have their own FM and some AM transmitters in those licence areas.

The comparisons should be between FM and DAB+.

It is not the Government's policy to put DAB+ SFNs along highways, it is what Commercial Radio Australia wants. The Goverment wants an equivalent digital coverage area to analog, just as it is doing with TV. The Commercial companies don't seem to want to cover the populations in their licence areas!

As for European cars, those who will be installing DAB+ as standard equipment in all of their product ranges include General Motors (Opel) and Ford. Toyota Australia has just started installing DAB+ radios as already posted.

The car manufacturers say it takes 4 years from the time they make a decision to change the design until that change appears on the showroom floor. Digital radio has been on air for 2 years.

There may also be some reluctance by car manufacturers to install digital radios because DAB+ is not good for areas of low population density. DRM30 is cheaper to run because about a quarter of the radiated power gives the same coverage area. There will be a big release of single chip DAB+/DRM+/DRM30/AM/FM receiver chips in the first quarter of next year. The parliament has not ruled on the result of the selection of the technical standard for regional/remote radio. DRM and DAB+ or a combination of the two are all possible.

In the time that DAB+ has been transmitted in Australia the receivers have dropped a lot in price, now with Europe and its population of 500 million adopting DAB+ as against our 13 million people in the coverage areas, the prices will really start to drop including car radios.

Buying radios in the aftermarket shops on a one off basis is much more expensive than a car manufacturer buying in quantity and installing them on the production line. Additionally a proper antenna installation can be used instead of stick on antenna on the windscreen which is hardly ideal.

Are you trying to say that people on the outer edges of the metropolitan areas are using 3G instead of FM now?

AlanH

Edited by alanh, 20 December 2011 - 07:58 PM.

[GoForMoe]

alanh, on Dec 20 2011, 08:46 PM, said:

Goformoe,
If you don't believe it go and look and listen to a real one. As I said it was designed and is manufactured in Melbourne. The radios now being installed in Hino trucks look very similar. The AVR6.1 is in the JB website with a price, they are hardly likely to try and sell a line drawing!!

For the price of $1799 at JB it is academic whether it exists or not.

Quote

Once the Geelong, Lookout Hill, Mt Tassie, Mt Alexander transmitters start transmitting the problem you quote will go away. There is similar situations in Cental Coast, Katoomba and Illawarra in NSW and Gold Coast, Toowoomba and Sunshine Coast. All of these areas already have their own FM and some AM transmitters in those licence areas.

I'm not talking about adjacent licence areas! A Geelong, Lookout Hill, Mt Tassie or Mt Alexander transmitter does not change the fact the Mt Dandenong transmitter does not and can not sufficiently cover the licence area - not even to a similar degree to FM.

People within the Melbourne, Brisbane and Sydney licence areas cannot receive the stations that are licensed to serve their areas. When you add in car reception, this lack of coverage is a severe impediment to the technology.

Quote

The comparisons should be between FM and DAB+.

This thread is about Internet Radio in cars, something that works and works well.

Quote

It is not the Government's policy to put DAB+ SFNs along highways, it is what Commercial Radio Australia wants. The Goverment wants an equivalent digital coverage area to analog, just as it is doing with TV. The Commercial companies don't seem to want to cover the populations in their licence areas!

It's not that they don't want to - it is that DAB+ is a terrible technology that wastes huge chunks of spectrum; just to prevent competition to the current broadcasters.

Quote

As for European cars, those who will be installing DAB+ as standard equipment in all of their product ranges include General Motors (Opel) and Ford.

On the cars shipped to Australia, or just in the Euro local spec?

Quote

Toyota Australia has just started installing DAB+ radios as already posted.

On one variant of one model.

Quote

Are you trying to say that people on the outer edges of the metropolitan areas are using 3G instead of FM now?

Are you trying to say DAB+ coverage is better than 3G?

I'm only suggesting that between 3G Internet Radio streaming, and DAB+; 3G streaming has better coverage, more choice and equal quality, and the TCO is about even when you compare the very high start up costs to mobile internet data plans.

Edited by GoForMoe, 20 December 2011 - 08:20 PM.

[alanh]

Goeformoe
You suggest that the coverage of DAB+ is poorer than FM. Lets look at Melbourne.
The only maps of FM coverage are on the ABC Website
3ABCFM/3JJJ Melbourne

I see that they claim coverage past Geelong, however the power of the ABC FM transmitters are double that of the DAB+ transmitters.
Melbourne wide commercial transmitters on Mt Dandenong are 56 kW, DAB+ 50 kW. Rialto Towers 525 Collins Street MELBOURNE have DAB+, 3FOX FM and 3MMM FM on channel repeaters.

Poor coverage in cars is due to not having the antenna on the roof, rather than near the metal work at the edge of the windscreen. After most FM/AM car radios have a roof mounte antenna or they use a telescopic rod.

There is a DAB+ car radio available in Europe which contains an amplifier on the base of the antenna which is mounted near the rear of the roof.

AVR6.1 you should compare like with like. This receiver contains many non radio functions reversing camera, GPS along with the ability to update traffic conditions etc.

At least now you admit this radio exists and is not just a line drawing!

As for covering the whole licence area, this happens in FM for the same reason as it does with DAB+. You cannot receive Sydney AM or FM stations reliably over the NSW central coast. Even the ABC has installed an FM translator for the 702 Local radio signal which is radiated at 50 kW from SW Sydney.

You forget that Australia was the first country to transmit DAB+ to 13 million people or more. This was only 2 years ago. Now that Europe is taking it on in a big way your complaints about the price of receivers will be solved particularly when car manufacturers install DAB+ receivers in all cars.

DAB+ will only be allowed in 14 MHz of the VHF spectrum. The FM band is 20 MHz wide. In one area FM transmitters are 800 kHz apart with channels 0.2 MHz. Thus there is 25 possible high powered FM channels in Melbourne. However only 14 are used because of the requirements of adjacent areas  (4 in Geelong) for high powered services. This means that 2.8 MHz of bandwidth is used for Melbourne wide transmissions.

DAB+ is currently transmitting 31 programs in 5.136 MHz (including guard bands) = 0.166 MHz "each" So DAB+ is not wasteful of bandwidth. It is also considerably cheaper to build 3 high powered transmitters instead of 31 high powered transmitters!

As far as 3G goes, already posted on this site is a link to comparison of using 3G vs DAB transmissions in the UK by a company which instals and maintains large networks of radio and 3G. It is much cheaper to use DAB that huge numbers of 3G retransmitters which can make much more money on telephony and WiFi. Even with the digital dividend there is never enough mobile bandwidth. As pressure grows, the speed drops.

In addition an independent method of communications is vital during emergencies. Kinglake is a good example where the 3G can be burn down as its in the fire zone where as large area broadcasters are not in the same area and so are unaffected. In addition the carriage of multiple channels of radio reduces the current infrastructures' ability to take phone calls.

As I have asked how many people listen to 3G in a car instead of FM radio? As I said why pay when its free to use!

It is only a matter of time before analog radio is switched off, to be replaced by digital radio not 3G for the vast majority of listeners. There will alway be some who listen via the web particularly expatriots and those interested in other cultures.

AlanH

Edited by alanh, 20 December 2011 - 10:41 PM.

[GoForMoe]

alanh, on Dec 20 2011, 11:36 PM, said:

Goeformoe
You suggest that the coverage of DAB+ is poorer than FM. Lets look at Melbourne.

FM is better coverage wise than DAB+. Nothing you can say disproves that, because it is simply untrue to say otherwise. There aren't people in the Western Suburbs with problems receiving the commercial FM stations; there are with DAB+.

Quote

AVR6.1 you should compare like with like. This receiver contains many non radio functions reversing camera, GPS along with the ability to update traffic conditions etc.

So do a lot of radios half the price; with benefits like DVD players included as well.

Quote

At least now you admit this radio exists and is not just a line drawing!

No I don't. No one's shown a picture and for that price, no one's going to buy one so it may as well never exist because no one will find out.

Quote

As for covering the whole licence area, this happens in FM for the same reason as it does with DAB+. You cannot receive Sydney AM or FM stations reliably over the NSW central coast. Even the ABC has installed an FM translator for the 702 Local radio signal which is radiated at 50 kW from SW Sydney.

FM gets much closer to coverage than DAB+ ever will; not to mention degrading gracefully rather than cutting off.

Quote

As far as 3G goes, already posted on this site is a link to comparison of using 3G vs DAB transmissions in the UK by a company which instals and maintains large networks of radio and 3G. It is much cheaper to use DAB that huge numbers of 3G retransmitters which can make much more money on telephony and WiFi. Even with the digital dividend there is never enough mobile bandwidth. As pressure grows, the speed drops.

The network already exists so transmitter costs are irrelevant; and 64kbps for a DAB+ quality stream is not a huge burden on the mobile network. Likewise if multicast was used it is further reduced.

Quote

As I have asked how many people listen to 3G in a car instead of FM radio? As I said why pay when its free to use!

Then use it and stop talking about DAB+.

DAB+ and 3G are both 'premium' options, representing an additional cost. Be that in a mythical car's purchase price being higher for including DAB, or just in the cost of a receiver. If you are happy with FM; FM is there for you. But if you aren't you have to ask what the better, more reliable, higher choice option is.

Quote

It is only a matter of time before analog radio is switched off

Analogue radio will never be turned off. Ever.

Quote

In addition an independent method of communications is vital during emergencies. Kinglake is a good example where the 3G can be burn down as its in the fire zone where as large area broadcasters are not in the same area and so are unaffected. In addition the carriage of multiple channels of radio reduces the current infrastructures' ability to take phone calls.

Hence not turning off analogue radio.

[DrP]

Let's not remind alanh that there are plenty of broadcast towers in areas that can 'burn down' as it'll probably inspire another 50 pages dribble to be emitted by him.

Restoration times?  Mobile and radio are usually bought back to life pretty darned quickly, one way or another.  Telstra has even gone to the point of building an 'exchange on wheels' that can literally be driven around the country and hooked in to restore telephoney.