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myrantz

Bt At Kajak

Blah   39 members have voted

  1. 1. Do you believe what I've said (Read post #1).

    • Yes
      25
    • No
      14
  2. 2. Do you agree/disagree with what I've said (i.e. power cables do make a difference)

    • Agree
      16
    • Disagree
      23
  3. 3. Do you have any of those killer type recordings in your collection

    • Yes
      15
    • No
      24

Please sign in or register to vote in this poll.

1,203 posts in this topic

So after all the tos and fros I have decided to put myself up for BT.... This was done at Kajak's place.

The blind test is quite informal - I just sit there on the sofa and listen to the music (which is quite new to me), while Kajak swap cables... We only did this 5 times. :ninja:

I can honestly say I did not try to look what he was doing. He also cursed when he swapped cables, :lol: I guess as a distraction for me? :P

The power is swapped at the KDac.

The track was #8.

Anyway, listened once, listened twice... No difference... Forgot to check but I'm thinking they're the same cable...

The third time, it became very apparent something was different... The thing that strikes me most is that I can't hear the person breathing anymore... It is very easy to pick, despite I am totally unfamiliar with the music...Repeated the test 2 more times and the differences are easy to pick... Forgot what cables was used for the 4th and 5th time, but I walked up to confirm I was right.

Now comes the noob part... I actually kind of prefer the normal power cable :blush:, because I couldn't hear the breathing, it became easier for me not to get distracted. But I know it's a normal cable. more on this later..

After 5 tests... I find that it is easy enough for me to pick (i.e. I don't even have to guess) so I did not go further to 10. I expect people to cry foul over this. :P

Later on POV and Kajak told me the sound stage is wider with the audiophile cable... And it's rather hard for me to hear that from the sofa. However, standing back behind it is indeed the case it is very obvious. Using normal cables, the sound is narrower. Using audiophile cable, and the sound is wider, in such a way the speakers sort of disappears.. Just close your eyes and try to use your hands to find the boundary of the sound, with the normal cable, the V shape you make will be smaller.

Listened to the same track a few more times to get more used to the sound. With the audiophile cable, the breathing is very clear,the back up instrument (piano?) is beautiful and everything is fluid, the sound is wider and seems to fill the room better...

With the normal cable, the breathing isn't very obvious at all, the piano sounds kind of horrible.

Interestingly I am able to listen to the cello with the normal cable, but I can't really remember how the cello sound like on the audiophile cable because I'm sort of waiting for the breathing.. :wacko:

One other interesting aspect I find, is that with a normal cable, it seems there are 3 speakers - left right centre. But with the audiophile cable, there are no "gaps". It forms a inverted U shape, with heights as well.. Can't explain this properly, you have to hear it yourself.

I'm using the breathing and the piano to pick the diffrence. While I think POV and kajak uses the wide/deep sound stage and the notes to pick the difference... There are probably a lot more audio cues you can listen to... It's just that easy.

Basically overall the cable change brings more life to the music. For a lack of description - fludity.. The music is very smooth, and you can sort of feel the pace of the music in your body better... It just feels natural...

Not sure why but my brain is wired to zoom in to the breathing. This is something I hope to overcome, and blind testing unfortunately will not remove this bias.

Brought 4 CDs from my collection that don't sound that bad at home, but when I play it at his place it's quite obvious some processing is done on the BGM, the vocals... Except for genius loves comapny (his recommendation), my other CDs sound like crap tbh... One even has a clear distortion I didn't hear before (will confirm that later).

Will try and see if I get the same benefits for my setup. My room is small so I don't get the width, and the depth.. Will also try POV and compare to my commerically made ones.

Parting notes:

1/ I can see people crying foul that I've only do this 5 times. I'm prepared to do more a second time, but anyone want to bet I can at least get 8 out of 10 right or more with a very good chance of 10 out of 10? If no, how much are you willing to pay up?

2/ I have freaking no idea now why power cables work. No idea at all. But they work... Caveat is they work much better on his system than on mine. Will try POV's cables soon and compare that against my commerically made ones. More to come on this I guess. Now I know better what to listen for...

3/ Need good quality CD material. Without good material you cannot bring out the best in your system

4/ Turns out you aren't really disadvantaged when you listen to things you're unfamilar with.. And audio fatigue may be a non issue if the differences are this easy to pick..

5/ Although I can pick the differences quite easily. I still cannot filter out the breathing. As such I don't think I'm qualified to go to level 1. So I'm staying at level 0... :)

6/ This is not to prove to the people out that audiophile cables are right or wrong. You be the judge yourself.. Hopefully this post will give you what to listen for (from a noob like me, and from more experienced folks like POV and Kajak).. It's a worthwhile upgrade over normal cables... What cable to use, please ask the others as they're more experienced than me. I'd hope to try theirs in time soon.

Also tried the TeraDAC with resister mods and dueland caps... While I like it, it just lacks the "fludity" somehow... It is very good value though and engaging... Once one forget how fludity is like (or never heard it before), you'd enjoy this dac (disclaimer: I'm a noob so don't take my recommendations as advice)...

All in all a very good day, and I have learn quite a bit.. Actually bought my camera over hoping to document all this.. But ends up enjoying it too much I don't feel like working.. Maybe when there's a second time...

Bless this thread to exceed 2000 posts :P... Typed this in a hurry, so there may be errors here and there. Might as well, now i wait the flame that follows... Living in Perth, I can take the heat... :P

BTW, not so sure if power cables apply to multi channel, hence posted in this section.

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good on you for being guinea pig, regardless of result sounds like you had an interesting time. which is probably the main thing :)

look am sure some one or other will call fowl. cant please everyone. as long as did it for yourself and got what you wanted out of it. probably all that matters. dont worry too much what those others...

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good on you for being guinea pig, regardless of result sounds like you had an interesting time. which is probably the main thing :)

look am sure some one or other will call fowl. cant please everyone. as long as did it for yourself and got what you wanted out of it. probably all that matters. dont worry too much what those others...

Agreed.

Regardless of the results, thanks for doing them and writing it all up.

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good on you for being guinea pig, regardless of result sounds like you had an interesting time. which is probably the main thing :)

look am sure some one or other will call fowl. cant please everyone. as long as did it for yourself and got what you wanted out of it. probably all that matters. dont worry too much what those others...

well said, treblid has been heard and learned and that is what matters,he asked the question why i have asked why so many times speaking to engineers and technicians none have an answer we cant measure everything at this present time is one theory

yes treblid is a noob a few aspects change with the power cord image is a lot more focused less of a blur tone of instruments is more natural

as for the bt brigade i dont care what they come up with do your own tests :wub:

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How many did you get right out of 5? Sorry if i missed it

If Kajak used the same cable for the 1 and 2, then all 5.. Actually did 2 more times I think, sighted so that I can hear the wider stage... I hope the others do keep score, coz I only count up to 5.. :P

Note that this is just informal BT.. But now that I have done once, I'd be more than happy to do it again... Esp if there are incentives.. :P *hint hint*..

One thing I noticed abt 10-20 seconds in I'd actually forget what cable is being used... And just use the cues I've found to spot the difference. The wider & more complete stage (and the cello) are a lot easier cue to spot and I think audiophiles will recognise that immediately... Once I'm sure I know what it is, I walk up again to confirm... From the sofa I couldn't really see what cables are being used.

One thing I was wrong about BT, I thought pressure, audio fatigue, unfamiliarility will be critical factors.. Turns out I'm quite relaxed... only walked up to confirm what I think it is.

The mind is a curious thing. I can't filter out the breathing, and Mario didn't hear the breathing at all... The breathing is very hard for me to miss, as it is very rigid, controlled and seemed timed...

When I'm standing behind the sofa/couch, I couldn't hear the breathing with normal cables. But when swapped to the audiophile one it's there again.

---

And while the theory of better grounding may or may not still be true (I'm still hoping it's a factor :P), there really is something more to cables... Grounding alone cannot really explain these features I think.. Likely shielding plays a part. Will check with my colleagues and see what they think.

Also listened to some master recordings... They're like RAW files from a DSLR camera. Unpolished at times, but one really feels connected to the music somehow... And bob marley. Heard of his name before, but never listened to his music :blush:.. The reggae beat is kind of nice (first time I heard this genre of music on a audio system)...

Basically Asian music sucks... Need to get more CDs...

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Thanks for sharing. Some interesting things that you heard. One thing I know from doing my own tests, it's a pain in the butt when people complain that you didn't do it to their satisfaction, when you do it to a standard that suits your own curiosity. And when you are there, you need less repeats to be convinced than those who are only reading about it. It's a very differen perspective.

If I was completely sure I heard specific things consistently, I just might stop short as well and say "bugger the naysayers, I've convinced myself enough."

So, who was being tested blind? Just Treblid? Or POV? What were the scores out of 5?

Also, any photos or links showing the cables?

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Good write up!

On a familiar system and music, it becomes pretty obvious after you make changes, large or small.......

Hope to be able carry out a power cable test in my system soon.

Cheers guys :D

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If I was completely sure I heard specific things consistently, I just might stop short as well and say "bugger the naysayers, I've convinced myself enough."

Well.. I was convinced of the lower noise floor yesterday.. Now I'm convinced there's much more...

Will need to do some adjustments and tests for my own system. Unfortunately I can't get width and height as I'm severely restricted by space in a cubic room... :(

Speaking of height, the TeraDac seems to do that very well... I have no idea how that's done though...

So, who was being tested blind? Just Treblid? Or POV? What were the scores out of 5?

Just me... POV wasn't taking the test, and has no idea what cables are used. But I think he got it immediately..

Also, any photos or links showing the cables?

Apologies for that.. I'm supposed to be doing that.. :blush: Hopefully Kajak can take pics, or POV (he's looks fancier :wub:)... To me they just look like thick power cables with "audiophile plugs"... Exactly like the ones I have.

Should have compared with Kajak's cables with POV's ones, and mine...

Think that will be far far more interesting.

On a familiar system and music, it becomes pretty obvious after you make changes, large or small.......

The only obvious thing I can reliably pick on my system is copper cable vs silver cable (only because I know them well)... The improvement on power cables is there, but it's no where as apparent on kajak's... :(

Hope to be able carry out a power cable test in my system soon.

Please do... And report your findings...

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If Kajak used the same cable for the 1 and 2, then all 5

Does that mean you didn't hear any difference? I'm lost. :)

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Sorry I'm still confused. How many out 5 did you get right?

If Mario used the audiophile cable for the first 2, then it's all 5....

I can't remember about 1.. but know 2 (audiophile) is different from 3 (normal).. and confirmed it 4 and 5. Forgot what 4 and 5 are, but I got them right too...

I'm willing to bet my 0 reputation on 1 audiophile cables... If I'm wrong on 1, it just means I'm unfamiliar with the music :unsure: ..

So it's either 4 out of 5, or a full 5 out of 5 for blind testing. Odds of that happening from guess alone is 0.03125 (or 3 in 100).. It sounds low, but by #5 I don't really need to do it any more (that's when they tell me to hear for the wider, clearer separation, fluidity, etc)..

Does that mean you didn't hear any difference? I'm lost. :)

Yeah, I think 1 and 2 are done with the same cable... You keep asking me, now I'm scared... Did I get 1 wrong? :ninja:

Edit: Oh... When I say 1 and 2 I mean BT 1 and BT 2, and BT3 (so on and so forth).. Hope you can get the gist... Sorry.. On hindsight should have chosen better words...

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Yeah, I think 1 and 2 are done with the same cable... You keep asking me, now I'm scared... Did I get 1 wrong? :ninja:

Edit: Oh... When I say 1 and 2 I mean BT 1 and BT 2, and BT3 (so on and so forth).. Hope you can get the gist... Sorry.. On hindsight should have chosen better words...

Kudos for completing the test Treb. However, one would think with the interest in the Power Cord thread and the BT you'd have actually documented/recorded (i.e written down) the results for posterity. Your responses appear to be a little nebulous. I'm not invalidating the test but Science is about recording the results - regardless of methodology. Your memory appears to be somewhat...unreliable.

"I can't remember about 1.. but know 2 (audiophile) is different from 3 (normal).. and confirmed it 4 and 5. Forgot what 4 and 5 are, but I got them right too..."

<_<

If there is a next time have a pad/pencil handy and note down actual results. Was it the one track you heard during the test? I'd personally use more material and more iterations the next time around too (Unless Kajak did of course).

At least you put your money where your mouth is this time (So to speak). I respect that.

Blade

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So the cable was acrolink with some plugs salvaged from a printer power cable? From what I can tell, it uses high purity copper and a flat cross section where the 3 conductors run parallel to each other. No shielding? Curious fact is that the capacitance is quite low.

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Kudos for completing the test Treb. However, one would think with the interest in the Power Cord thread and the BT you'd have actually documented/recorded (i.e written down) the results for posterity. Your responses appear to be a little nebulous. I'm not invalidating the test but Science is about recording the results - regardless of methodology. Your memory appears to be somewhat...unreliable.

Agreed... It was kind of informal ... But it still works.. The thing is, blind test or not blind test. It's really obvious on his setup..

I was supposed to document, but I thought I'm still familiarisingly myself with track #8. Before I know it, hey, it's different... :D That I count as BT3... :D

"I can't remember about 1.. but know 2 (audiophile) is different from 3 (normal).. and confirmed it 4 and 5. Forgot what 4 and 5 are, but I got them right too..."

<_<

I blame stupid Perth drivers.. Like driving in rush hour today... :wacko: They're going so slowly!!!

If there is a next time have a pad/pencil handy and note down actual results. Was it the one track you heard during the test? I'd personally use more material and more iterations the next time around too (Unless Kajak did of course).

For the BT yes, just that track.... Later on we tried other materials... e.g. Idea Of North, I wrote that down on my phone (and yet I never thought of writing down the BT results, hiaz)...

In a way it went from an informal BT to let's try this, lets try that... Play something to amaze me.. Let's try that..

i.e. Went from an "exam" environment to "hey let's play"...

At least you put your money where your mouth is this time (So to speak). I respect that.

Well, no money is placed I guess... I think it'd going to be easy, didn't expect it to be that easy... Experienced listeners will be a cakewalk doing this. And even noobs can do this..

Thanks to Kajak for showing this to me... :D

I do hope he don't have a special button hidden somewhere that when he pressed, restrict the audio ... :P But I don't care. When it sound good, it sounds better than my system... Actually I'm kind of sure his system on normal cables sounds better than mine...

Kind of interested to know what his system will sound like if every cable is normal cables... But I guess that really isn't important...

BTW, don't take my BT results as being definitive... BTs are only relevant for people taking part in the test, and not really valid outside... It's just more for me to know what power cables can do, plus getting myself familiarised with BT..

The only way ahead is to test this on your own setup (using whatever evaluation method you like)...

We can argue the theories, and how it works, and how it's supposed to work, and why it doesn't work... But that's very little value in that...

DrP calls it magic.... Maybe he's right.. :P

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The whole vagueness of your answers has me curious, I must admit.

You don't know what score you got, but the answers were obvious? Sorry but it sounds fishy to me. Why couldn't you have done it properly and reported you results definitively ?

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No need to ramble on Treb - I got the gist of the test in your other replies. All I suggested was "Record the results with a pad/pencil next time". Nothing more, nothing less.

1. "Put your money where your mouth is" is a saying Treb. It is not to be taken literally. Look it up. It means you were prepared to take a punt on something you believed in.

2. I said kudos for doing the test. I have read nothing into your experience or the BT results so you need not have qualified it to me. I don't care, it was your experience - I wasn't there.

It's when you go off the rails with your replies that irks some here. Stay on topic and avoid the tangents.

Blade

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The whole vagueness of your answers has me curious, I must admit.

You don't know what score you got, but the answers were obvious? Sorry but it sounds fishy to me. Why couldn't you have done it properly and reported you results definitively ?

To be honest I'm having trouble with this one:

"So it's either 4 out of 5, or a full 5 out of 5 for blind testing. Odds of that happening from guess alone is 0.03125 (or 3 in 100).. It sounds low, but by #5 I don't really need to do it any more (that's when they tell me to hear for the wider, clearer separation, fluidity, etc).."

Pardon? Isn't BT supposed to be about zero bias, no prompting, no external cues etc Drizt? I ask you because you're a SME (Subject Matter Expert) on BT.

I wasn't going to get into this but some of these statements don't gel and the fact results were not recorded smells.

Bowing out now.

Blade

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So the cable was acrolink with some plugs salvaged from a printer power cable? From what I can tell, it uses high purity copper and a flat cross section where the 3 conductors run parallel to each other. No shielding? Curious fact is that the capacitance is quite low.

one cable was from a printer hp just standard kettle cord

the other was a acrolink with ebay fancy looking plugs which are cheap

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That is true. There should be no external cues as to what is under test. If something other than your ears (listening to the test subject, nothing else) gives you an indication of what is under test, then it is no longer a blind test.

It definitely smells fishy. It may well have been 100% above board, but treblid is terrible at relaying what actually happened. And when someone is unable to relay the facts properly it makes one very very suspicious.

In any case, without being there I have no idea what actually happened (especially given the info presented by treblid).

Anyways.... i have no vested interest in the outcome. I am just happy that they did blind testing (assuming they did it properly, I can not confirm nor deny).

Treblid. What are your thoughts on blind testing now?

To be honest I'm having trouble with this one:

"So it's either 4 out of 5, or a full 5 out of 5 for blind testing. Odds of that happening from guess alone is 0.03125 (or 3 in 100).. It sounds low, but by #5 I don't really need to do it any more (that's when they tell me to hear for the wider, clearer separation, fluidity, etc).."

Pardon? Isn't BT supposed to be about zero bias, no prompting, no external cues etc Drizt? I ask you because you're a SME (Subject Matter Expert) on BT.

I wasn't going to get into this but some of these statements don't gel and the fact results were not recorded smells.

Bowing out now.

Blade

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The whole vagueness of your answers has me curious, I must admit.

You don't know what score you got, but the answers were obvious? Sorry but it sounds fishy to me.

Yes!!!!

Finally... Let it begin... :D

----

I will do a 2nd BT in the future that's fully documented, for the full 10 times in the future (i.e. more formal)... and even a sighted one as control... Depends if Kajak still want to do that, coz from his viewpoint all this is really a waste of time. You have to be here to understand this.

Take what I have now, and pick it apart, it'd only try to do a better job when I redo it again... Go for it.. Tell me where I did wrong, and I'd see if I can fix that.. :P

No documentation, no photos... What else?

Why couldn't you have done it properly and reported you results definitively ?

Treblism: Do you prefer working, or playing?

I honestly prefer playing.. In the end we spend the rest of the afternoon trying different DACs, different materials, different transports... Play kind of got into the way.. Apologies.. :P

They're only demonstrating power cables difference for my benefits only.. I could have kept my day secret... :D But I want this thread to go 2000... :P

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I thought as much.

treblid deliberately has tried to be vague in an attempt to dismiss blind testing on the grounds that if people question the results no matter what the outcome then the method is pointless.

But if you can't even do it properly or even report the findings properly then you really haven't followed the method, therefore you can not confirm nor deny the validity of the method.

I call shenanigans. Seriously how hard is it to do 10 or more iterations of a blind test and mark down your answers and then validate your answers against the testing methodology?

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I wasn't going to get into this but some of these statements don't gel and the fact results were not recorded smells.

Bowing out now.

Blade

justin think of it this way treblid heard the difference and that is the only thing that matters who gives a **** about recording results the bt brigade will find something to pick on unless they are present.

pov heard it himself and if we recorded the results then some would say oh its been forged and not correctly done all the excuses under the sun.maybe we should also monitor his brain functions and wear white coats and 60 minutes on site recording the bt.

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