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Mr C

Trinnov St2 Pro

48 posts in this topic

Phase corrections and time delays.  Also the way you can customise the readings taken and then apply weights to the positions used.

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3 hours ago, Mr C said:

Thank you for the information about other products.  From my reading that I am doing these other products don't all do what the Trinnov does.

Maybe look at it like this Mr C ; the trinnov with its room optimisation bitmapping is looked on as on a par with dirac live [ the datasat rs20i uses this ] If you don't want to spend this sort of money the mini dsp is 1 solution or if you are considering dolby atmos or dts--x kill 2 birds with 1 stone with the emo XMC1 [ will get the new boards soon and it does dirac full with frequency cut of curtains now] 

To give some perspective for an expensive standalone component ; there are things that the Trinnov cant do pertaining to the next generation of room eq ; dirac unison can :) 

Quote

"Unison is an extension of the concept of room correction, in which each speaker is equalized not only by means of a single filter at the speaker’s input, but by using all other speakers in the system to help the main speaker attain an ideal target impulse and frequency response. The loudspeaker to be equalized is called main speaker, and the rest of the speakers are called support speakers. The role of the support speakers is generally twofold: to extend the frequency range of the main speaker, in cases where the main speaker is band-limited; to actively counteract the acoustic response of the room caused by the main speaker.

"In a traditional single-channel approach to room correction, each speaker is viewed as a main speaker, and support speakers do not exist. A single-channel correction filter can adapt the time- and frequency response of the main speaker so that it interacts as smoothly as possible with the acoustics of a given room. However, neither the speaker’s frequency range nor the room acoustics can be significantly changed.

"Using Dirac Unison, the room acoustics can be altered in ways that are impossible to achieve with single-channel equalization. Speakers located at various positions in the room can act in-phase with the main speaker and out-of-phase with the room response, thus enhancing the main speaker and suppressing the influence of the room."

Theres 1 pre pro that is reasonably priced - unlike a trinnov altitude say - that will likely get dirac unison ; being the emo RMC1 which like other emo pre's is upgradeable for hdmi pcbs etc ;) Another one to wait for is the xmc2 which may get unison as an add on option 

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1 hour ago, Mr C said:

Phase corrections and time delays.  Also the way you can customise the readings taken and then apply weights to the positions used.

Why do you need to adjust time delays in a 2 channel system? If the listener is equidistant from both speakers there should be no error in timing at the listening position. And timbre matching of the same speakers in a pair shouldn't be necessary, assuming all the drivers were matched properly at the factory. Band smoothing and phase correction by EQ shouldn't be required if in the first place you have a well engineered speaker.

I heard the Paradigm S8 auditioned at the dealer. Throwing more money at an EQ box for this speaker (or S6) would be better saved for the next speaker upgrade.

I advocate Audyssey Pro EQ in multi-channel HT audio. Never required it for 2ch music. By the sound of it none of us here are going to convince your intentions otherwise. So go ahead with Trinnov and let us know of the result. 

 

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12 minutes ago, brodricj said:

Why do you need to adjust time delays in a 2 channel system? If the listener is equidistant from both speakers there should be no error in timing at the listening position. And timbre matching of the same speakers in a pair shouldn't be necessary, assuming all the drivers were matched properly at the factory. Band smoothing and phase correction by EQ shouldn't be required if in the first place you have a well engineered speaker.

I heard the Paradigm S8 auditioned at the dealer. Throwing more money at an EQ box for this speaker (or S6) would be better saved for the next speaker upgrade.

I advocate Audyssey Pro EQ in multi-channel HT audio. Never required it for 2ch music. By the sound of it none of us here are going to convince your intentions otherwise. So go ahead with Trinnov and let us know of the result. 

 

Thank you for your input.

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I think that it is the Trinnov ST2 HiFi unit that I am wanting to know more about rather than the ST2 Pro.  It seems that the HiFi model is more akin to someone like me interested in just maximising his 2-channel music sound in my room.

By the way, some have suggested that I have already made the decision to purchase the Trinnov ... NO that is not correct, and I am still evaluating all options.  I do thank members for the considered opinions so far.  Apologies if it may have come across to the contrary.

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Also to keep people posted, David Mosely (WaveTrain) HAS contacted me and he is investigating whether a local retailer in Perth will be able to demo the Trinnov in action.  If this is the case, this would be very beneficial.

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1 hour ago, Mr C said:

Also to keep people posted, David Mosely (WaveTrain) HAS contacted me and he is investigating whether a local retailer in Perth will be able to demo the Trinnov in action.  If this is the case, this would be very beneficial.

Good to hear Mr C. If you ever decided to fill out the bottom octave of your S6'S  with the SVS subs and you had a room where positioning them for a flat response was problematic some room eq for the bass frequencies would be good :)

But then you would need a new pre amp with a separate low pass crossover out ; and you are likely happy with the nuforce ..

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3 hours ago, Mr C said:

I think that it is the Trinnov ST2 HiFi unit that I am wanting to know more about rather than the ST2 Pro.  It seems that the HiFi model is more akin to someone like me interested in just maximising his 2-channel music sound in my room...

Of all the 2-channel HiFi installations I've seen, even those $100k+, not one of those had an EQ box in the signal path before the main speakers.

Have you measured your in-room response and found a problem that requires EQ correction?

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7 minutes ago, brodricj said:

Of all the 2-channel HiFi installations I've seen, even those $100k+, not one of those had an EQ box in the signal path before the main speakers.

Have you measured your in-room response and found a problem that requires EQ correction?

Yes I have and there are some small issues.

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And you've exhausted all options with the positioning of the speakers and any acoustic treatments to resolve these small issues?

Post a picture of the room, and the in-room response frequency plot.

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3 hours ago, Mr C said:

Also to keep people posted, David Mosely (WaveTrain) HAS contacted me and he is investigating whether a local retailer in Perth will be able to demo the Trinnov in action.  If this is the case, this would be very beneficial.

that is good to hear re a demo. would be mandatory i would suggest in something like this ! 

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Here are 2 photos showing the front of the room and the rear ...

Frequency plot done in Excel and snipped into Word.  The top curve is with the SVS subs in action and the lower curve is with NO subs.

FreqPlot.docx

20170524_181803.jpg

20170524_181832.jpg

Edited by Mr C
edit

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What about the >150Hz stuff?

Do you have an electric projection screen that comes down in-front of the TV?

The obvious potential problem is the position of the main speakers and subs. If you don't have an electric projection screen put the main speakers where the subs are, but more forward with zero toe-in. Put the subs on the front wall but facing away from each other, you might need each sub a different distance from the side wall (i.e. one closer to the centreline than the other).

If you have an electric projection screen, same same for the subs, but get the main speakers as close together without obstructing the screen. Start with zero toe-in and run the in-room response again.

As much of those cabinets between the speakers have to go. They will be seriously screwing up your stereo imaging. I'm not seeing a room there that should require EQ for 2-ch music.

Are those Vicoustic panels in the corners packed with ultratel (or similar) behind them, or is it empty space? I'm guessing empty space.

Do you ever have more than 3 people in that room? If not remove the front row seats and bring the rear seats slightly forward.

These changes should result in a much better sounding room.

Edit: I see you've got a 115" Stewart electriscreen. Doesn't give you much option for the positioning of the main speakers, unless you're prepared to shift them for 2-ch music when the screen is up.

 

Edited by brodricj

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i can tell you this much running subs for 10+ years for 2ch. what you need on the sub side to tame them you can buy for $350...eg something like the velodyne sms-1

playing with phase will do 2 5ths of F all  and playing will time wont achieve much if anything either wiht the subs co located with the mains as you have its really not necessary. move your sub closer to your main if you like. but you do not need phase or time delays ! with them located as they are :)

and playing with freq beyond the sub range with eq. I personally would not recommend for 2ch. not unless you REALLY know what you are doing and really have the gear and knowledge to test your speakers and know what you want to achieve. better to achieve those with treatments than eq in my thinking. especially seeing you seem conducive to treatments in the room.

 

all that said it looks like you have put a fair effort in the room and looking to gain the last ounces. get some local help acoustically I would suggest. rather than trying to get it wiht a piece of gear :) 

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5 minutes ago, brodricj said:

What about the >150Hz stuff?

Do you have an electric projection screen that comes down in-front of the TV?

The obvious potential problem is the position of the main speakers and subs. If you don't have an electric projection screen put the main speakers where the subs are, but more forward with zero toe-in. Put the subs on the back wall but facing away from each other.

If you have an electric projection screen, same same for the subs, but get the main speakers as close together without obstructing the screen. Start with zero toe-in and run the in-room response again.

As much of those cabinets between the speakers have to go. They will be seriously screwing up your stereo imaging. I'm not seeing a room there that should require EQ for 2-ch music.

Are those Vicoustic panels in the corners packed with ultratel (or similar) behind them, or is it empty space?

 

The >150 Hz stuff is not a major concern.  I have an electric projection screen that comes down in front of the TV .. yes.

Vicoustic SBE's panels in the corners ... there is nothing behind them but the SBE's (super bass extremes) have some depth to them.  As for screwing up stereo imaging ... hmm well I am getting a very nice stereo stage already.  I have had a number of people complement me on the sound, particularly the stereo image (a strength of the S6's), so I just don't buy what you are saying about the stereo image full stop. The S6 speakers are in a position so as to not interfere with the viewing of the sides of the screen.

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2 minutes ago, :) said:

playing with phase will do 2 5ths of F all  and playing will time wont achieve much if anything either wiht the subs co located with the mains as you have its really not necessary. move your sub closer to your main if you like. but you do not need phase or time delays ! with them located as they are :)

Can you please explain this.

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10 minutes ago, Mr C said:

The >150 Hz stuff is not a major concern.  I have an electric projection screen that comes down in front of the TV .. yes.

Vicoustic SBE's panels in the corners ... there is nothing behind them but the SBE's (super bass extremes) have some depth to them.  As for screwing up stereo imaging ... hmm well I am getting a very nice stereo stage already.  I have had a number of people complement me on the sound, particularly the stereo image (a strength of the S6's), so I just don't buy what you are saying about the stereo image full stop. The S6 speakers are in a position so as to not interfere with the viewing of the sides of the screen.

Packing the corners with Ultratel might bring down that 35Hz hump and even out the response below 80Hz. I can assure you, without even listening to the room, that large objects such as cabinets between the main speakers screws with the stereo imaging. You will never see a high-end speaker manufacturer demo their speakers with any furniture objects between them, for this reason. But you say you don't buy it. You're just wrong on that.

Edited by brodricj

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1 minute ago, Mr C said:

Can you please explain this.

think about it mr c... playing with time i.e. time delays is needed when you locate the subs too far away from the mains or much closer. with them co-located ... as you have them sound no matter the freq... travels at the same speed ... speed of sound :) so there is no need for playing with time... and delaying anything. thats been my experinece with co location. with some eq systems particularly if just applied on certain freq they with all the processing involved will infact induce a massive delays and thats when you find you need to start using time delays. phase effects you will see typically around cross over points or where there is interaction. but again here given how your gear is co-located it will be I bet you so small there is didly squat the system will be doing with it. 

 

the main thing the eq system will do is pull down some peaks ... and get a pretty smooth response on the subs so they arent taking over ...which I can tell you something like the sms-1 at $350 will achieve and achieve superbly and the best bit is it doesnt actually induce delays as other heavy duty processing does. I know as I have measured it. sometimes less is more and with eq this is particularly the case.

eq should be the last bastion... perhaps you are there. but I would suggest there are other things can do with location and room first. particularly given you have already been conducive in treatments in the room. 

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1 minute ago, :) said:

think about it mr c... playing with time i.e. time delays is needed when you locate the subs too far away from the mains or much closer. with them co-located ... as you have them sound no matter the freq... travels at the same speed ... speed of sound :) so there is no need for playing with time... and delaying anything. thats been my experinece with co location. with some eq systems particularly if just applied on certain freq they with all the processing involved will infact induce a massive delays and thats when you find you need to start using time delays. phase effects you will see typically around cross over points or where there is interaction. but again here given how your gear is co-located it will be I bet you so small there is didly squat the system will be doing with it. 

 

the main thing the eq system will do is pull down some peaks ... and get a pretty smooth response on the subs so they arent taking over ...which I can tell you something like the sms-1 at $350 will achieve and achieve superbly and the best bit is it doesnt actually induce delays as other heavy duty processing does. I know as I have measured it. sometimes less is more and with eq this is particularly the case.

eq should be the last bastion... perhaps you are there. but I would suggest there are other things can do with location and room first. particularly given you have already been conducive in treatments in the room. 

I don't have any real scope to change speaker placements OR sub placements.  I had a sound consultant indicate that he wouldn't do anything more with the room in terms of acoustic treatment, and said that the sound stage is very good with the S6's.  So as you see I am interested in getting the utmost out of what I currently have.  At present the bass sound is very deep and tight - the way I like it.  Yes at present there is a peak at around 30-40Hz, and it is apparent at times, but is not in any way boomy or uncontrolled.

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8 minutes ago, Mr C said:

I don't have any real scope to change speaker placements OR sub placements.  I had a sound consultant indicate that he wouldn't do anything more with the room in terms of acoustic treatment, and said that the sound stage is very good with the S6's.  So as you see I am interested in getting the utmost out of what I currently have.  At present the bass sound is very deep and tight - the way I like it.  Yes at present there is a peak at around 30-40Hz, and it is apparent at times, but is not in any way boomy or uncontrolled.

i personally would bump up the sub vol...but then just trim the lower end i.e. the bottom freq of the sub so you end up with a reasonably smooth curve for a combined sub+mains response. rather than the lumpy response. and would likely be all id do....

 

a simple sub eq device. e.g. the anti mode for the subs I pointed to earlier would take care of this entirely... or even the much cheaper sms1. both tools will let you play to your hearts content full manual or full auto if you like. even if doesnt get you anywhere which i would be very supered if didnt. then no major loss they are quite inexpensive devices. 

 

with the measurements you have and what you have posted. I see no evidence to be mucking about. above sub freq and with anything bar the subs...

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27 minutes ago, :) said:

i personally would bump up the sub vol...but then just trim the lower end i.e. the bottom freq of the sub so you end up with a reasonably smooth curve for a combined sub+mains response. rather than the lumpy response. and would likely be all id do....

 

a simple sub eq device. e.g. the anti mode for the subs I pointed to earlier would take care of this entirely... or even the much cheaper sms1. both tools will let you play to your hearts content full manual or full auto if you like. even if doesnt get you anywhere which i would be very supered if didnt. then no major loss they are quite inexpensive devices. 

 

with the measurements you have and what you have posted. I see no evidence to be mucking about. above sub freq and with anything bar the subs...

Thanks for your advice Al.  I understand what to do in terms of equalisation for the subs.

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51 minutes ago, Mr C said:

I don't have any real scope to change speaker placements OR sub placements...

If you have no flexibility to position the speakers to optimise the sound, you're better off employing a speaker with a sealed enclosure, rather than a ported enclosure speaker like the Paradigm. Not being able to move those speakers from where they are in that installation is the biggest impediment to improving the sound.

I have used Velodyne SMS1 in my installation before, and I like it very much. But the first step to control that 35Hz hump should be passive.

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30 minutes ago, brodricj said:

If you have no flexibility to position the speakers to optimise the sound, you're better off employing a speaker with a sealed enclosure, rather than a ported enclosure speaker like the Paradigm. Not being able to move those speakers from where they are in that installation is the biggest impediment to improving the sound.

I can't see how moving the speakers slightly inward is going to remove the 35-40Hz hump.

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