MLXXX

NBN download speeds in practice: fast enough to access UHD?

218 posts in this topic

I'm starting this dedicated thread as there has been some ad hoc discussion in other threads about NBN download speeds, with particular reference to accessing UHD (also called 4K).  See in particular:

The above threads provide some interesting details about the NBN. 

For people like me with a less than ideal knowledge of the terminology, here's a helpful list of terms used in relation to the NBN:  https://www.finder.com.au/nbn-tracker/faq/list  And here's a lengthier but in some ways less explanatory glossary: http://www.nbnco.com.au/utility/glossary-of-terms.html

I note that Netflix recommend a minimum download speed of 25Mbps for accessing their UHD content. [However I've found in practice that you can get by with somewhat less. My inner northside Brisbane suburb doesn't have the NBN but we do have cable. The Optus HFC download speed sometimes dips down to as low as 17Mbs at my house but we find that 2160p Netflix Australia content will continue to stream, uninterrupted, at 2160p.]  

 

Fibre to the node

One thing I've seen reported is that the way telephone copper cabling is routed is not necessarily as the most direct path from your house to the telephone exchange. So if you are in an older suburb serviced with the fibre to the node version of the NBN, and you see a fibre to the node cabinet close to your house, you cannot assume that your copper telephone line connects to it by the shortest route. (It might first head down another street and then circle back.) For example see the discussion in the Whirlpool thread:  http://forums.whirlpool.net.au/archive/2464648  

 

NOTE: I'd be happy for this thread to be used for related topics, such as whether people are even able to access 1080p streaming.

Edited by MLXXX

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
25 minutes ago, MLXXX said:

Netflix... UHD content.

Which 'aint "proper" UHD anyway... ;)

JSmith :ninja:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Peter, in relation to your comment, "As a side observation, it would be nice to think the nodes will be evenly distributed in high density suburbs, but I suspect where a node can't service all the lines in its footprint, they'll just put another node right beside it.", that's the sort of info I'd be interested in knowing about. My scan of other forums, in particular Whirlpool, suggests that at least at this stage the cabinets (pillars?) are normally single units. And I gather, to get into the nitty gritty, that a single node can connect via fibre to two cabinets that are each a few hundred metres away from that node but in different directions from that node. So in a brownfields rollout one could reasonably expect the cabinets to be fairly evenly spaced throughout a densely populated suburb, in the first instance.  I guess if there were then a further increase in population density it could be expedient to locate an extra cabinet alongside an existing cabinet.  Even then, though, if it truly is a densely populated suburb, the maximum copper cable distance to any particular subscriber might still be relatively short, compared with the situation for subscribers in a rural area.   

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

In the previous thread...

20 minutes ago, pgdownload said:

Seem to be, but not :) Two different capacity issues (no of connections and minimum distance requirements). The minimum distance requirements is a parameter fixed by the technical limitations of FTTN. I don't know the number decided upon but presumably every house must be within (say 1500m) of a node for FTTN to work at the speeds NBNCo require it to. This minimum node density is the same whether there is 2 houses to service or 2000.

(Is is just me, or is anyone else developing a love/hate relationship with this new editor?)

Again, like the FTTP GPON, a standard FTTN cabinet provides 384 VDSL2 lines

Remember they've not long finished the FTTN trials & planning is still a bit fluid, but it's "expected" that 60% of services will be within 400m of a FTTN node & should achieve ~100Mbps. Of course, that means a good whack are further than that but, to give some indication of what's achievable, at 500m people are getting ~90Mbps down, at 700m ~60Mbps down, and at 1500m ~15-20Mbps. (All figures from ex-colleagues working for both NBN & the Big Evil T...)

That said, they've cherry-picked areas with good existing O-side/street cabling & minimal potential interference for the trials & early rollouts. What happens anywhere else is dependent on how bad the in-situ copper is before they decide to remediate/replace it, and what else is running inside it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
18 minutes ago, MLXXX said:

that's the sort of info I'd be interested in knowing about. 

Wouldn't we all. Posters like 1080 are very technically knowledgeable but just what network issues NBNCo/Governent are dealing with and what solutions they decide are acceptable is a huge grey hole. 

At the moment there are those telephone nodes dotted around everywhere already (the cylinders technicians take the top off that have a million tiny wires.) Presumably they will be replaced with a NBN node (or two). It would be interesting to know the density of those exchanges. If (as I suspect) many of the houses they service are too far away for FTTN then a decision will need to be made to cut a whole bunch of cables somewhere else and hook them into a brand new node.

Regards

Peter Gillespie

Edited by pgdownload

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

With regards to FTTN cabinet location: the original story was that "you can just plonk a cabinet down beside the existing pillar and cut it over!". Nobody with a clue really believed that - but since that was the story told by the vendor, the people signing the cheques believed it (or at least repeated it like they believed it).

Reality seems to be that, in a typical middle-suburban "1/4 acre block, 2.3 kids, Falcadore in the driveway" area, you'll be looking at 1~2 FTTN cabinets to replace a single existing pillar or RIM. Maybe 3 or 4 if the density is high enough or the area is large enough. The plan is still to locate at least 1 next to the existing pillar, but realistically people are dubious about that - it depends on the size of the area covered & the pillar's location in it.

 

On preview: pg, a quick explanation for you:

Those fat grey round posts are "pillars" - sometimes referred to as "DAs" (short for "Distribution Areas"), but that more refers to the geographical area covered by a pillar. There's 2 different sizes (actually 3, but very few people have seen the third!) - the stomach-height ones are 900 type (maximum capacity 900 pairs, but generally only provisioned to a maximum of 800 (300 main pars back to the exchange & 500 "O-side" pairs feeding the streets), while the chest-height ones at 1800 types (1800 pairs max, but again generally only provisioned up to 600 exchange / 1000 O-side pairs). So you can see the average suburban pillar is probably carrying more services than will fit in a single FTTP or FTTN cabinet.

(I wont get in to things like RIMs & CMUXs - consider them an electronic pillar that basically consists of the line circuits from the telephone exchange dragged outside & stuffed in a box on the street, with fibre back to the exchange & copper out to the customer. Mostly they're on their own and take the place of a pillar, but sometimes they're associated with a pillar (if they've been put in for expansion), so there's some overlap there (and in the terms DA and "CA" (Cabinet Area)).

 

Edited by Malich
Clarity/typos

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
41 minutes ago, Malich said:

In the previous thread...

(Is is just me, or is anyone else developing a love/hate relationship with this new editor?)

Again, like the FTTP GPON, a standard FTTN cabinet provides 384 VDSL2 line.

So a rough 400m square in my inner city Brunswick looks like 500 properties (pretty dense) with quite a lot of those being 2-4 unit apartment blocks.

(Sudden realisation) That said, anywhere that's got a certain threshold density is almost certainly being fed by HFC (or fibre) already (2.1 million homes?). So I think its a fair assumption FTTN tech will be rolled out in places where 384 homes per 400m radius (and below) is more the norm. Should be workable. Stretch that to 1km (and 50Mbps) and they should be laughing.

Regards

Peter Gillespie

Edited by pgdownload

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Bring back an equitable NBN service to Australia!

What we have been given is an in-equitable dogs breakfast...

JSmith :ninja:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

In my area single cabinets are placed next to single pillars. The worker bees are going 6 days a week in all sorts of weather to make it happen.

 

This is where one that will serve my house, less than 200 metres away, is going in. I hope when it is up & running, my speed will be better than currently available in the evenings.

 

Local_pillar.jpg

 

(The felled tree is to stop it from falling across the 22kV feeder as others did in the last storm. The pole has been replaced, the wires are yet to be.)

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
15 hours ago, I am not a duck said:

In my area single cabinets are placed next to single pillars. The worker bees are going 6 days a week in all sorts of weather to make it happen.

Thx for this type of info.

It'll be interesting to see how FTTN is actually implemented in established residential areas across Australia, and what download (and upload) speeds residents find themselves able to access.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I fear that as the rollout continues and the costs mount, corners will be cut and there will be LESS cabinets set up to serve residential areas.  I note in my neighbouring  suburb of Osborne Park (Perth), which is a light industrial area combined with retail outlets (in suburb Inaloo), in one street, there are TWO cabinets within 100 metres of each other in King Edward Street.  Go figure that ....

In short I think it is a project that is so massive, chaotic and one that so many underestimated the scale .....  we are paying the penalty for decades of neglect and penny pinching.  My house which is 200 metres from the area that HAS been NBN enabled (Osborne Park), will be connected, I am told, towards the end of 2018.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The short answer is this NBN is a bloody joke,  64th slowest in the world.  And if your luck enough to be lumbered with fixed wireless, as most of the country areas are.  The best of luck with that.  When the wind blows, speed drops, When it rains [most of the time in the Dorrigo area, that's why we grow loads of spuds  and dope] the speed drops. When the kids come out of school, the speed drops.  And if the dog happens to wee on the wire, it's rat s**t for a week

Our little village shop has both NBN fixed wireless for general use and the Centrelink computer is ADSL2.  The speeds are like night and day. No need to say which is faster

As it is at the moment if you want an internet connection, your told you have to have the NBN if it's available.  All very democratic NOT.  Only one ISP will allow a new ADSL service. Frankly Dial-up was quicker, and probably still would be, if you where allowed to have it.   And someone just suggested 4K streaming,  give me a f**k'in break.

Edited by bassett
I can't bloody spell

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, bassett said:

 And someone just suggested 4K streaming,  give me a f**k'in break.

Yeah this gives me the S$%ts too .... you have got to be joking !  That is why blu-ray discs are still king for PQ ... (or whatever disc format will permit 4K)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 minutes ago, bassett said:

All very democratic NOT.

 

4 minutes ago, Mr C said:

That is why blu-ray discs are still king for PQ

+ 1

Having people paying the same price for a variable service depending on distance from a box is rubbish.

JSmith :ninja:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, Mr C said:

I note in my neighbouring  suburb of Osborne Park (Perth), which is a light industrial area combined with retail outlets (in suburb Inaloo), in one street, there are TWO cabinets within 100 metres of each other in King Edward Street.  Go figure that ....

Suggests the opposite of what concerns you. Sufficient nodes appear to be being placed in installation areas. In practice node placement involves two main criteria. Number of houses each node can service and distance from the node to the house. One of the nodes you saw probably does 400 houses to the east of it. The other node does 400 homes to the west of it. If you were starting fresh each node would be place around 500m from every other node dotted grid like across the city. But each node actually has to connect into an existing bundle of wires that feed off to lots of properties. No point putting a node 500m away from another if you just have to connect all those wires 400m further to get to the node.

FWIW I think the node placement will have been worked out extremely well. It has fairly simple constraints and (distance, cost, power, existing infrastructure,etc.) I just don't think the technology is much scratch even if implemented well.

Regards

Peter Gillespie

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

im getting Nutflakes UHD 4K with a 10Mbps linespeed ADSL2+

just the odd nature/flowers/waterfalls thing though, the proper movies revert to 1080p (if i understand how the info bar works)

am i correct in assuming the info in the top left hand corner that displays time into movie/5.1 sound/language and resolution is the actual resolution being streamed and not its actual native resolution ?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Mr C

Business is treated differently to residential by the NBN.

The speed drops off very quickly with distance on copper cables, particularly when every property is using it at the same time, which will be typical in business hours for FTTN.

Business is also more likely to push the politicians and the NBN management, they are also more likely to buy the higher speed packages.

Alanh

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
18 minutes ago, alanh said:

Mello Yellow,

That is why Netflix require a stable 25 Mbit/s for UHD.

Check their website.

Alanh

Alanh

seriously Alan, did you actually read my post or are you auto-botting keywords again ?

i am getting the occasional 2160 in my info window with a 10Mbps connection, regardless of what the Nutflakes website says (in theory)

reasons could vary from as much as, no dialogue is being streamed to the actual packet not containing that much detail that would require the full 25Mbps

question still is ... am i getting 2160 if the little window displays 2160 ?

im guessing YES (but its limited )

 

mello yello (check the spelling)

Edited by mello yello

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

im just waiting around for the marantz UHD universal player, then maybe look into getting discs, but for now my choice was a 1080p tele (with lots of 1080p content) or a schmickey mouse 4K tele that upscales SD and1080p nicely, with the option of the occasional 4K treat

i went for schmickey, we dont even have NBN yet, but if 25/5 is the affordable realistic standard @$80 P/M and streaming standards require at least 25/5, then whats the point of digging all those holes?

i foresee compressed watered down claytons 4K being the norm for the masses who will opt for the 25/5 (more subscriptions, less quality) ... and discs being the real 4K

sort of like MP3 and ... lossless

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
27 minutes ago, mello yello said:

 and discs being the real 4K
 

The way I see it this means that discs will still be king for PQ.  Long live the physical disc !!!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, Mr C said:

The way I see it this means that discs will still be king for PQ.  Long live the physical disc !!!

I'll be quite happy for this to be the case. :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Absolutely ... too much compression for those who love streaming to get 'decent' 4K.  Which is why I am going to sit tight for a while yet before I begin on another upgrade path from 1080P towards 4K.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, Mr C said:

The way I see it this means that discs will still be king for PQ.  Long live the physical disc !!!

until we get vinyl 4K movies

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

btw HD on FTA and Foxtel Sports HD never looked better, i thought Fatty Vautin was in my living room the other night

 

...wait...thats not a good thing is it

 

 

http://cdn.newsapi.com.au/image/v1/9b8defb630512990733c1face74a3bbf

"yeah yeah, it is, mells"

 

Edited by mello yello

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!


Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.


Sign In Now