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Digital Tv: Closing The Gap For Regional Wa Viewers


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#101 Smacca

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 08:33 PM

SMACCA,
I admit when I am wrong,


Yeah, right...

see the top of this page. Now that VAST is truely running I am still waiting for an apology.......


Are you sure you want to open up that gigantic can of worms?

nbound,
What has not been stated is that most of the GWN7/WIN network is still analog.


Yet most of the regional WA population has access to digital terrestrial television, which is a far more important fact to consider when arguing specifics like what kind of shows to expect on channels.

Also that there has only ever been in analog GWN7 carrying seven programs and WIN carrying a mix of Nine and TEN network programs.

So the separation two commercial program feeds into 3 separate program feeds will not occur until around August this year.
So in the mean time some areas get the same programs on two digital/VAST multiplexes simultaneously.


WIN WA stopped showing Network Ten programs, at least on a full-time basis, in February this year. I have seen the occasional half-hour sitcom past midnight on WIN since then, but certainly no daily/weekly Ten programming like it has been for the last 13 years. WIN WA is basically the exact same as Nine Perth. No local news and virtually no existence of Network Ten programming.

After the digital conversion occurs we will see what happens to the programming particularly on GWN7 for the South West/Great Southern, Midlands inc Geraldton, Eastern Goldfields and the remote licence areas.


Why would anything happen to programming on GWN7 after digitial conversion occurs?? It's a sole Seven Network affiliate. Nothing will change! All network-owned analog transmitters in the state use VAST for service, so it's the exact same GWN7 and WIN they've been watching anyway.

A separate program feed is used for Albany compared to the rest of the South West licence area. This is commonly done in Queensland.


I'm glad you decided to believe me on the existence of multiple GWN7's on VAST/terrestrial, and how Albany is split from the SW feed. But there will be no programming changes to these multiple splits. They exist there to simply show different, more relevant advertising to those areas.

Edited by Smacca, 22 April 2012 - 08:34 PM.


#102 hrh

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 09:05 PM

hrh,
you are only guessing as to his location. What if he is west of Mawson?
AlanH

Gee, I thought it was a dead giveaway - as per the post which I have quoted below!!!

What area are you in?

We are covered by Mawsom (Central Agricultural) Tranmission site. We approximately 77Km east of the tower. Be thinking we are on the edge of the useable signal and just drop over it under certain circumstances

Did you even read his post? He is 77km east of Mawson.

Thanks Smacca.

I have not disputed that Mawson is the transmitter for this area and that Merredin is too far away at the power being used. However the signal stength in Doodlakine are dodgie, however it is a little further than than the 77 km. However small variations in that area have a big difference.

I notice that the quality reduces then does the signal strength. On the channels used, dense foliage can produce diffraction if its between the antenna and the transmitter.

AlanH

It may not be Doolakine per se, rather the Doodlakine area which does fall within 77 kilometres of being generally east of Mawson, and by your own statement, and as shown on the digitalready site the reception can be very variable depending on location and also affected by other factors such as vegetation and water (rain).

#103 Smacca

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 09:32 PM

Oh btw, would you mind having another look at the VAST wikipedia page and correcting anything you beleive is incorrect (esp. Western VAST related)

Made a few small corrections. I should point out that only the SD commercial channels are split into North and South feeds, not all of them as footnote 1 below the table suggests. Perhaps another reason the previous table was more effective? :P

#104 nbound

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 10:47 PM

Made a few small corrections. I should point out that only the SD commercial channels are split into North and South feeds, not all of them as footnote 1 below the table suggests. Perhaps another reason the previous table was more effective? :P

Haha :P, I like the extra information thats presented in the new table though, Im all ears if there is a way to combine the two reasonably (even with a redesign). :)

#105 Smacca

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 12:18 AM

Haha :P, I like the extra information thats presented in the new table though, Im all ears if there is a way to combine the two reasonably (even with a redesign). :)

Me too. Might have a play in Talk page and see what we can come up with.

#106 alanh

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 02:04 AM

SMACCA,
There is a considerable population in Geraldton and the areas around Mt Barker, Northam who would not agree with you along with those in Pt Hedland, Broome, Derby and Kunnunurra.

I have never said that One, Eleven, 7 Mate, 7two, GEM and GO! are all on national relay except for advertising and time zone delays. There have been some splits of GEM for NRL in all states except NSW & Qld.

TENWest is owned by Prime WA/WIN and they are buying the TEN Perth feed.

So the Albany/Great Southern feed is a satellite playout centre to transmitter link which is not VAST.

AlanH

Edited by alanh, 23 April 2012 - 02:15 AM.


#107 DrP

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 05:08 AM

Even a drunken spider could weave a less tangled web than this.

#108 Smacca

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 10:46 AM

Even a drunken spider could weave a less tangled web than this.

Well said!

#109 Smacca

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 08:12 PM

SMACCA,
There is a considerable population in Geraldton and the areas around Mt Barker, Northam who would not agree with you along with those in Pt Hedland, Broome, Derby and Kunnunurra.

Considerable, yes. But I don't see the WIN Network press release stating "Geraltdon, Mt Barker, Northam, Port Hedland, Derby and Kunnunnurra must have digital before ceasing the dual affiliation".. Maybe you have better eyes? They have said they will cease dual affiliation once a certain percentage of the population has digital. That is well and truly covered by now, Sir Alan.

I have never said that One, Eleven, 7 Mate, 7two, GEM and GO! are all on national relay except for advertising and time zone delays.

What? The multi-channels clearly play no part in this argument. It's the three primary services which are in direct effect of any changes to affiliation or localise advertising.

There have been some splits of GEM for NRL in all states except NSW & Qld.

Interesting, but nothing to do with this argument at all.

TENWest is owned by Prime WA/WIN and they are buying the TEN Perth feed.

Another television factoid. How fascinating!

So the Albany/Great Southern feed is a satellite playout centre to transmitter link which is not VAST.

No. As I have said to you several times already; the only way GWN7's signal gets to terrestrial sites is through the VAST platform. Right now, I am watching GWN7 GAW (Albany, Goldfields, Wheatbelt) through my terrestrial antenna, which gets its signal using equipment receiving VAST.

It is and always has been as simple as that, you idiot.

#110 alanh

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Posted 24 April 2012 - 08:37 PM

SMACCA,
http://myswitch.digi...arch=Kalgoorlie
Since you have terrestrial signals you are inelegible to receive an authorised VAST signal.

What proof do you have that you are not just comparing the satellite playout centre to transmitter link for Goldfields/Great Southern/Central Agricultural, to that coming from a terrestrial transmitter. Remember that the playout centre to transmitter link will contain all the programs for that network as a fully multiplexed signal ready for transmission.

AlanH

#111 Smacca

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Posted 24 April 2012 - 09:09 PM

SMACCA,
http://myswitch.digi...arch=Kalgoorlie
Since you have terrestrial signals you are inelegible to receive an authorised VAST signal.


I participate in the Altech UEC PVR trial program. Several members of Austech were contacted and given boxes to test new PVR firmware prior to public release. Myself and one
other WA participant were given access to the full suite of channels in the West zone for testing purposes. I have provided various screenshots and videos in the past, enough proof for anyone on here except you.

Idiot!

What proof do you have that you are not just comparing the satellite playout centre to transmitter link for Goldfields/Great Southern/Central Agricultural, to that coming from a terrestrial transmitter. Remember that the playout centre to transmitter link will contain all the programs for that network as a fully multiplexed signal ready for transmission.


There is no such thing as a dedicated "playout centre to transmitter link" for digital terrestrial services. It's all through VAST. You know this, Alan.

Edited by Smacca, 24 April 2012 - 09:11 PM.


#112 alanh

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Posted 25 April 2012 - 01:09 AM

SMACCA,

Is the trial finished?

There is nothing to stop Prime using their satellite uplink at their Canberra studios to use the same transmission standards as VAST they minimise satellite bandwidth. It is common to encrypt transmitter feeds because of copyright requirements.

Even you say "I should point out that only the SD commercial channels are split into North and South feeds" So the northern feed will be on VAST.

You missed that there is a separate feed to the Southwest so that particularly Bunbury/Busselton + translators can have local advertising for around 200,000 people.

The original feed you were watching prior to the commencement of VAST was being used for the whole of WA. Now it just feeds southern WA with the DBCDE funded feed feeding VAST in Northern WA which is the remote licence area.

You say "that there is no such thing as a playout centre to transmitter". Try Tasmania from Canberra, it started at the commencement of commercial DTV in Tasmania.

The broadcasters can change split the content to the respective licence areas at their will.


AlanH

Edited by alanh, 25 April 2012 - 02:10 AM.


#113 Smacca

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Posted 25 April 2012 - 02:05 AM

I take it from your response that you do not have a VAST receiver because you cannot get authorisation. As a result you cannot say its programs are identical if you cannot see it.


Alan, can you tell me what date is showing in the following photos taken from my authorised VAST box in Kalgoorlie? I believe it's April 2011.

Posted Image

#114 alanh

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Posted 25 April 2012 - 02:38 AM

You have not answered my question yet.
These photos according to you are a year old.
I have not disputed that the programs are the same.

SMACCA:"I should point out that only the SD commercial channels are split into North and South feeds" Which one are you watching?

AlanH

#115 Smacca

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Posted 25 April 2012 - 02:46 AM

I see you edited your post.

Is the trial finished?


Actual beta testing has taken a break as the PVR firmware is now on the market, but all participants still have access to services. I presume they will continue to use us for future firmware updates.

There is nothing to stop Prime using their satellite uplink at their Canberra studios to use the same transmission standards as VAST they minimise satellite bandwidth. It is common to encrypt transmitter feeds because of copyright requirements.


I agree. There is nothing stopping Prime7 from doing this. In fact they were between 2010 and 2011 on Optus D1. But the fact is, the WA networks are now using the VAST Western transponder to deliver signal to terrestrial sites.

For a short period of time, I was able to watch GWN7 GNW on my VAST box, alongside GWN7 GAW from Peter's Hill. I saw many differences with advertising between the two channels. I then compared GWN7 GNW with GWN7 WAW (Aurora) and noticed they had the exact same advertising.

You'll also notice (doing a blind-scan with any MPEG-4 sat receiver) that there is no other SD 16:9 version of GWN7 on any satellite anywhere, other than on the VAST Western transponder. Couple that with the fact all network-owned analog sites have been converted to a simple VAST-UEC-box-to-transmitter type of setup. Yes, that's all network-owned sites. None of them rely on Aurora, D1 or DVN for signal these days.

Even you say "I should point out that only the SD commercial channels are split into North and South feeds" So the northern feed will be on VAST.

So the southern feed is a playout to transmitter satellite feed.


Let me clarify it for you;



North channels
Available only to VAST STB's registered in Qld/NT, OR digital transmitter sites within the Remote and Central licence area in Qld/NT
  • SCTV Central North
  • 7TWO Central North
  • Imparja North
  • GO! North
  • TEN Central North
  • ELEVEN North


South channels
Available only to VAST STB's registered in NSW/Vic/Tas/SA, OR digital transmitter sites within the Remote and Central licence area in NSW/Vic/Tas/SA
  • SCTV Central South
  • 7TWO Central South
  • Imparja South
  • GO! South
  • TEN Central South
  • ELEVEN South


North/South channels
Available only to VAST STB's registered in Qld/NT/NSW/Vic/Tas/SA, OR digital transmitter sites within the Remote and Central licence area in Qld/NT/NSW/Vic/Tas/SA
  • 7mate Central
  • GEM
  • ONE Central


West channels
Available only to VAST STB's registered in WA, OR digital transmitter sites within the Regional and Remote licence area in WA.
  • GWN7 GSW (Available only to DTH addresses or Tx sites within SSW licence area excluding Albany/Mt Barker)
  • GWN7 GAW (Available only to DTH addresses or Tx sites in and around Albany, Great Southern, Wheatbelt, Goldfields/Esperance)
  • GWN7 GNW (Available to all other DTH addresses or Tx sites not listed above)
  • 7TWO
  • 7mate
  • WIN WA
  • GEM
  • GO!
  • TEN West
  • ONE
  • ELEVEN

You say "that there is no such thing as a playout centre to transmitter". Try Tasmania from Canberra.


There is no such thing as a "playout centre to transmitter" feed being used in Regional and Remote WA or Remote Central and Eastern Australia. That is what this topic is all about.

#116 Smacca

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Posted 25 April 2012 - 02:57 AM

You have not answered my question yet.


How could I, when I was half way responding to your original post before you edited it?

The photo proves that VAST West was running in April 2011, putting your theory that it didn't start til mid-year to rest.

SMACCA:"I should point out that only the SD commercial channels are split into North and South feeds"


Yes! The commercial SD's in Remote Central and Eastern are split into North and South feeds.

Which one are you watching?


I currently receive the South channels on my 2nd VAST box. I can't access the North channels, but I know that boxes registered in Qld and NT get the North ones instead. SD only, of course.

#117 alanh

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Posted 25 April 2012 - 03:09 AM

So you now retract that there is no such thing as a playout centre to transmitter link when there is uplink dishes outside the Prime studios in Canberra!

There is no DTH allowed outside the Remote Licence area at the moment.

"VAST eligibility
The commercial television broadcasters will start digital television soon and expect that you will receive adequate coverage of their digital television services when they do. Please check the Terrestrial Coverage and Available Channels sections of mySwitch for technical information and approximate start dates for the terrestrial coverage predicted at your location.
Under the current access arrangements, the commercial broadcasters are not yet accepting applications for the authorisation of commercial television reception via the VAST direct to home satellite service in this area unless you intend to travel through remote areas of Australia, or you intend to apply for just the ABC and SBS."

I used Denmark as an example. This rule is in common with the rules used in the Eastern States regional areas. The three SD signals you talk of are used for transmitter feeds, because those with normal VAST receivers will be locked out of all but ABC/SBS unless they get authorisation which is not available. Each signal can be individually encrypted, so for those in the north with authorisation can be locked out of the GSW, GAW. With your generic authorisation you have a key which is in common with all commercial feeds.

I remind you that VAST is to lock out all viewers outside the remote licence area including Kalgoorlie basically for copyright reasons and for others who can prove they cannot receive terrestrial DTV provided all transmitters in their area are on air. In the WA outside the remote area will have to wait until the middle of next year. This also applies in the east, provided they are not already on Aurora. In those areas similar rules applied in analog.

AlanH

#118 alanh

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Posted 25 April 2012 - 03:34 AM

SMACCA,
If you had correctly authorised receivers you cannot receive any Eastern/Central remote areas. I am well aware of the situation in the East.
The pictures you show are not VAST because an authorised receiver would not receive any signals. Fact that there were trial signals for testing receivers does not mean that VAST is operating as a broadcast service that the viewers in the remote areas can use. You could not have done it if you had not been on the UEC test panel. DBCDE told the Broadcasters when they could authorise viewers and allocate the encryption to match the number in the receiver.

Proper authorised receivers will receive the HD signals which are MPEG-4 decoded otherwise they don't meet the DBCDE/Optus specification.
Currently all transmitters have to transmit MPEG-2 compressed signals. So this means for remote licence areas, the VAST signal has to be de-multiplexed, the HD signals MPEG-4 composite output.

http://www.digitalre...ST-service.aspx
"The Western VAST service was rolled out in stages from 31 March 2011, to 30 July 2011 when the full service was available. This service provides digital free-to-air channels to those who will not receive adequate digital terrestrial television services by the end of switchover. The service consists of 16 digital TV channels replicating the full range of free-to-air channels available in other areas of Western Australia.
What channels are available?

The Western VAST service features channels carrying programs sourced from WIN Television, Prime (GWN) and West Digital (Ten). It also includes the main national broadcaster services ABC1 and SBS ONE, together with standard definition (SD) channels ABC2, ABC3, SBS TWO, 7TWO, GO!, Eleven and the high definition (HD) channels ABC News 24 HD, SBS HD, 7mate, GEM, and ONE.
ABC news is available through ABC1 on a state basis so viewers in WA will be able to see the ABC WA News."

I note that your pictures are before the complete rollout.
You need to find someone who is in the remote licence area who has proper authorisation to find out what they see.

AlanH

#119 Smacca

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Posted 25 April 2012 - 03:35 AM

So you now retract that there is no such thing as a playout centre to transmitter link when there is uplink dishes outside the Prime studios in Canberra!


What I'm trying to tell you is there is no such thing as a link that is solely dedicated for commercial digital terrestrial transmission use in either the Regional and Remote WA or Remote Central and Eastern Australia licence areas. The links are on the VAST platform, which is shared between DTH viewers and the networks for terrestrial transmission.

There is no DTH allowed outside the Remote Licence area at the moment.


Which state are you referring to?

The three SD signals you talk of are used for transmitter feeds, because those with normal VAST receivers will be locked out of all but ABC/SBS unless they get authorisation which is not available.


What about the viewers who are within the SSW licence area, but aren't able to access analog TV as it is due to their location, and currently have a registered Aurora smartcard? I believe those viewers currently watch the GWN7 GSW variant on their VAST boxes. All the people who have come onto DTV Forum, reporting successful use of their VAST boxes in WA, get the GWN7 feed that is most relevant to them. Like me, I get GWN7 GAW on my VAST WA trial box, the same as terrestrial from Peter's Hill. If I was between Wiluna and Meekatharra somewhere, I'd get GWN7 GNW on my VAST WA box. It's really that simple.

In a nutshell, no matter where you are in Regional and Remote WA, the GWN7 you watch is the most relevant of the three according to the address you're at, whether it's via a VAST box or the local transmitter.

Each signal can be individually encrypted, so for those in the north with authorisation can be locked out of the GSW, GAW.


Exactly.

With your generic authorisation you have a key which is in common with all commercial feeds.


No, I can't actually watch GWN7 GNW or GWN7 GSW at the moment. Like I said, for a brief period when digital launched in Kalgoorlie, I was able to see GWN7 GNW on VAST for some unknown reason. This is when I noticed the advertising differences and matched it to Optus Aurora's GWN7.

I don't have a generic authorisation. I wish I did, though.

I remind you that VAST is to lock out all viewers outside the remote licence area including Kalgoorlie basically for copyright reasons and for others who can prove they cannot receive terrestrial DTV provided all transmitters in their area are on air. In the WA outside the remote area will have to wait until the middle of next year. This also applies in the east, provided they are not already on Aurora. In those areas similar rules applied in analog.


While that may be true, it still doesn't change the fact I am authorised to use VAST with my Kalgoorlie address.

#120 Smacca

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Posted 25 April 2012 - 03:57 AM

If you had correctly authorised receivers you cannot receive any Eastern/Central remote areas.

For all you know, I moved to the East for a month, registered a VAST box. I took the box with me back to WA.

Or maybe I helped my grandad in remote NT set up his new VAST receiver, and as a gift he gave me his 2nd registered box so I can watch the Footy live back home in WA.

Point is, nothing is impossible.

Here's a screenshot from the South box's EPG I took just then. I'll remind you that there is no other box in use in Australia with that type of graphical user interface and background image. It is an Altec UEC DSD-4121 VAST certified receiver, the only receiver that can be used for VAST services.

Posted Image


I am well aware of the situation in the East.
The pictures you show are not VAST because an authorised receiver would not receive any signals. Fact that there were trial signals for testing receivers does not mean that VAST is operating as a broadcast service that the viewers in the remote areas can use.


Ahh, finally you clarify a point you've made.

Explain the successful reports of VAST WA boxes being used, right now? between April 2011 and now?

I didn't even have any WA commercial channels for the first month of having the trial box. As soon as they appeared, they began authorising existing Aurora WA card holders, such as myself.

You could not have done it if you had not been on the UEC test panel.


I am glad you agree that I have been able to access VAST WA this whole time.

I note that your pictures are before the complete rollout.


Yep, back when it was just the three primary services, and when they were allowing existing Aurora WA card users access to it. That's how I and many others were eligible as Aurora WA was automatically authorised to anyone, anywhere in the WAW area, including Kalgoorlie.

You need to find someone who is in the remote licence area who has proper authorisation to find out what they see.


I can see using my 2nd box, but someone from North might be able to provide some proof for our dear friend Alan.

Edited by Smacca, 25 April 2012 - 04:06 AM.


#121 Smacca

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Posted 25 April 2012 - 04:27 AM

A couple more for you, taken 10 minutes ago..

Posted Image

Posted Image

#122 DrP

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Posted 25 April 2012 - 04:34 AM

Smacca! Photoshopping fakes to fool alanh!? The lengths some people go to. :D

#123 alanh

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Posted 25 April 2012 - 05:06 AM

SMACCA,
You still don't get it do you.
If it is not available to the public its a private network.
The broadcasters will not allow any VAST boxes operate outside the remote licence area. So in the south its a private network to transmitters because no one else is able to decrypt the signal. When you took your photos the signal was a private system because it was used to feed transmitters and only people like you were able to see this private signals.

The quote above shows when the public in the remote licence area could get their VAST receivers to work.

http://www.dtvforum....opic=12494&st=0 South WA inc Goldfields, http://www.dtvforum....showtopic=12495 North, contain links to maps show where authorisation has been available since 30 July 2011

Getting boxes which have been authorised in the east are not authorised for WA commercials.

A UEC box is a standard DVB-S2 HD satellite receiver which is capable of receiving any non encrypted signals in the Ku band.
It is the control of the encryption keys which controls which signals they can receive.


So you brought a box authorised for an NT address into WA. It's a national footprint so it will work. However if the broadcasters decide to change the encryption key requiring a new authorisation then they will still require an NT address. Yes, this has happened before in encrypted satellite systems.

I did not realise you were talking about the Central/Eastern licence areas

I do not agree that you were watching VAST until the DBCDE started the anthorisation for those living in the remote licence areas. Prior to that it is either test transmissions or Studio to transmitter links. Remember this is how Karratha, Central Ag, Kalgoorlie and Mingenew was fed and there were virtually no satellite viewers able to use this signal directly.

Since you cannot see Bunbury specific advertising then either the DVN network or a separate encrypted satellite channel is being to send the programs from Canberra/Sydney.


It will be interesting to see what happens after some time in June/July when Geraldton goes on air. Will Geraldton advertising be seen in Kalgoorlie or Albany??
A VAST viewer in the north cannot prove anything because they cannot see any signals from the Midland, SW, Cental Ag/Gt Southern or Goldfields to compare.

So VAST is Viewer Accessed Satellite Television which is DTH in the remote licence area and in areas in the rest of WA if inadequate terrestrial signal can be proved by measurement. Even so it will not be available in Perth before the start of next year and elsewhere the middle of next year. VAST is paid for by the DBCDE for remote licence areas and with the objective to give all Australians in Australia 16 TV programs, this signals are available to those who cannot get reliable terrestrial TV. The TV broadcasters have to pay for their own distribution if they are outside the remote licence areas. In areas of low population density commercial broadcasters are being subsidised to install additional transmitters.

Since the DBCDE is subsidising TV in remote areas, then they have no objection to using the VAST signal, currently they have to demultiplex it decompress the HD MPEG-4 signals and re-compress itoccuring in MPEG-2, remultiplexed and retransmit it. This is currently in Mt Isa, Alice Springs and Karratha. More transmitters will be added in the remote areas as the remote area transmitter rollout continues.

You are not using an authorisation for WA VAST so has no authority to describe what can be received by anyone who lives north of Geraldton. So saying that the VAST signal is the same as what is coming from the Kalgoorlie transmitter is most likely because he is watching a satelite signal which is not generally available from a satellite due to encryption and is feeding this transmitter.

AlanH

#124 alanh

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Posted 25 April 2012 - 05:18 AM

Smacca,
I know what is available on true VAST in the Eastern/Central remote licence areas. I do not dispute that your box can receive and decrypt the signals for which you have the key. That is what is supposed to happen and many viewers in the above areas are already using it.

You are unable to answer what a WA authorised viewer can see is what we have been discussing.

AlanH

#125 DrP

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Posted 25 April 2012 - 06:30 AM

Smacca,
I know what is available on true VAST in the Eastern/Central remote licence areas. I do not dispute that your box can receive and decrypt the signals for which you have the key. That is what is supposed to happen and many viewers in the above areas are already using it.

You are unable to answer what a WA authorised viewer can see is what we have been discussing.

AlanH


That alanh says this despite Smacca's quite clear statements that he has a VAST receiver authorised for WA is to be expected. His frequent lack of comprehension is well documented. Another recent example is a WA regional viewer stating he was 77km west (?) of the TX site, while alanh berated people because the viewer has not stated his position, according to alanh that is, he might even be to the east of the TX site.

Edited by DrP, 25 April 2012 - 06:31 AM.