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Is A Wall Mounted Tv Considered A "fixture" When Buying A House


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#1 blybo

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Posted 10 July 2011 - 09:04 AM

I've asked this question in my setup and construction thread but thought it would get more focus here...

We are moving into our new home in a few weeks and the vendor has a large flat screen tv on the wall and he didn't exclude it in the sale or in the contract.

As it is bolted to the wall I would argue it is a fixture and part of the house. I'm not going to bother creating a big issue over it but I believe I'm within my rights to ask for it to stay.

I know I made it abundantly clear that my AV equipment was not included in the sale of our house and removed the HT system before going on the market.

Edited by blybo, 10 July 2011 - 09:06 AM.


#2 DrP

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Posted 10 July 2011 - 09:14 AM

I've never heard of a TV, a projector nor any other piece of consumer electronics that is found in a typical household being referred to as a fixture.

#3 blybo

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Posted 10 July 2011 - 09:29 AM

But does that make it right? Googling comes up with it being a grey area but they were all US cases.

Dishwashers are included even though they are easier to remove than a TV or projector. The vendor did go to some lengths to make sure we understood a particular light fitting would not be staying but we didn't like it anyway :D .

#4 jfbari

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Posted 10 July 2011 - 09:35 AM

This situation is becoming more of an issue due to more households mounting their flatscreens.

In my experience, its something that should be sorted out between the seller and purchaser through the estate agent. Much like previously if something was not going to be included in the selling of the house like certain light fittings etc then the seller would advise the agent beforehand.

I have a close friend who recently sold his house, he had a wall mounted Plasma in the bedroom, told the agent that he could leave the bracket on the wall or he could take it down and patch and paint the wall.

Its all down to common sense and good communication prior.

#5 blybo

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Posted 10 July 2011 - 09:39 AM

You got to be kidding !!!!!!!!!!!! TV's hang on the wall brackets same as paintings. You want his pictures and paintings as well? :blink:

Its part of the contents of the house not a chattel. If you want it make sure you get it, have it specified in the contract that it stays.

Stop trying to rip the vendors arse.

This is one of the dumbest (and greediest) questions I have even seen asked.

First off... Pull your head in and such personal attacks are not appreciated. How many photos and paintings have parts routed through walls? Chattels are different to fixtures

I've made it clear already it isn't something I was going to push but I do believe it is open to debate. What I will certainly be asking is that in wall cabling remain.

#6 graham johnson

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Posted 10 July 2011 - 09:47 AM

First off... Pull your head in and such personal attacks are not appreciated. How many photos and paintings have parts routed through walls? Chattels are different to fixtures


Greed is something YOU need to keep under control. Push to keep it or not THIS is an indication OF HOW YOUR MIND WORKS. So YES its a "personal attack" and observation of YOUR attitudes.

YOU ARE THINKING OF MAYBE TRYING TO RIP THIS GUY OFF HIS TV what sort of reply do you expect?

I am sure they will leave those "PARTS going through the wall". (the antenna cable and maybe even the wall bracket) there for you. :P

If its NOT specified to stay YOU DONT GET IT.

Edited by graham johnson, 10 July 2011 - 09:58 AM.


#7 blybo

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Posted 10 July 2011 - 10:03 AM

Greed is something YOU need to keep under control. Push to keep it or not THIS is an indication OF HOW YOUR MIND WORKS. So YES its a "personal attack" and observation of YOUR attitudes.

I am sure they will leave those "PARTS going through the wall". (the antenna cable and maybe even the wall bracket) there for you. :P

If its NOT specified to stay YOU DONT GET IT.

You don't know me so you have no right to pass your holier than thou judgement. This shows a hell of a lot more about how YOUR mind works.

It was something I put up more as a discussion rather than a serious demand.

The fact googling the question brought up several legal discussions certainly shows that it is an issue that should be clarified by estate agents prior to sale. If the TV goes, as i expect, then the wall must be restored to it's original condition. No wall bracket, holes filled and wall re painted. I haven't decided if that's the wall I want to use for our everyday system but the speaker cabling already being there is pushing me towards that decision even though our couch would work better in the room facing the adjacent wall. I don't even know the size or brand of TV but know the surround sound system was a HTiB.

Im actually leaving far more in my property than I'm required too as the storage systems etc were bought for that property. I could probably sell em off on eBay or potentially make them work in the new place but thought it only fair to leave them.

Edited by blybo, 10 July 2011 - 10:13 AM.


#8 miata

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Posted 10 July 2011 - 10:26 AM

It wouldn't have occurred to me, to even ask. Now, if there was an Aston Martin in the garage......... :rolleyes:

#9 Geforce

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Posted 10 July 2011 - 11:06 AM

It wouldn't have occurred to me, to even ask. Now, if there was an Aston Martin in the garage......... :rolleyes:


An Aston Martin is a chattel.

Btw, a good real estate agent should have a list of what's included in the sale and what's not so as to protect his seller from any claims by the buyer.

#10 Innovizion

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Posted 10 July 2011 - 11:36 AM

I'd think the cabling and bracket stays (fixture) but not the TV.

#11 cooksta

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Posted 10 July 2011 - 12:22 PM

If I was buying a house and wanted the wall mounted tv I would ask agent wether it could stay.
Other issues would be if it was going and wall mount and cabling not required i would want that removed and repaired.

just my 2c.

#12 kulfi

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Posted 10 July 2011 - 12:25 PM

Getting this back on topic, why don't you ask for a copy of the contract ? It should have a ist of inclusions and exclusions on it. If there are any doubts, ask the seller.

I had asked and the list included items like bathroom mirrors, floor-to-ceiling hat stands, cooktop, dishwasher, oven etc. The TV was excluded.

#13 jimval

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Posted 10 July 2011 - 01:07 PM

I've asked this question in my setup and construction thread but thought it would get more focus here...

We are moving into our new home in a few weeks and the vendor has a large flat screen tv on the wall and he didn't exclude it in the sale or in the contract.

As it is bolted to the wall I would argue it is a fixture and part of the house. I'm not going to bother creating a big issue over it but I believe I'm within my rights to ask for it to stay.

I know I made it abundantly clear that my AV equipment was not included in the sale of our house and removed the HT system before going on the market.


I hazard a guess the TV wall bracket is a fixture as it is fixed to the wall, so unless specified otherwise that would stay I think.

....but the TV?

...seriously champ, you're kidding.

The TV is not fixed, the bracket is.

Commonsense tells you that AV cables particularly speaker cables are likely fixed in some way i.e. adhesive cable holders, ties, etc.
Even if the speaker cables are loosely routed through cavities, do you really think that anyone in general would take these with them these since they are usually cut to length to suit the installation?

The exception of course being exotic cable like expensive Van Del Hul, Chord etc which surely you would specify in the contract terms.

I can understand completely the very negative reaction by others to your original post.

If I were the vendor I would be insulted if the interested buyer tried to pull a stunt like the one you're suggesting, and I would immediately instruct my Real Estate Agent in no uncertain terms to go tell the interested buyer to "go **** himself".

If already sold, I would simply take my TV and tell the buyer, "good luck if you want to do something about it".

...that is unless of course the purchaser is paying way over what my property is worth, and in that instance, I would offer my wife ahead of the TV.

Edited by jimval, 10 July 2011 - 01:37 PM.


#14 blybo

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Posted 10 July 2011 - 01:21 PM

Getting this back on topic, why don't you ask for a copy of the contract ? It should have a ist of inclusions and exclusions on it. If there are any doubts, ask the seller.

I had asked and the list included items like bathroom mirrors, floor-to-ceiling hat stands, cooktop, dishwasher, oven etc. The TV was excluded.

I've already bought the property. The contract does not have any exclusions except a light fitting we are happy to have removed ;) . Much of what you have mentioned refers to chattels but ovens and cooktops are fixtures so are included in the sale unless explicitly put on an exclusions list. However there is a grey area that a wall mounted TV could be considered a fixture and it would therefore automatically included.

Most guys here are pretty attached to their AV equipment but again why should a wall mounted TV be considered a chattel yet a dishwasher is called a fixture when all you have to do to remove the dishwasher is unplug power and 1 or 2 hoses.

As I've already pointed out I'm not really fussed about whether it stays or not, I've got a nice plasma already but I would prefer not to have to worry about installing it at the new place and repair the holes in the house we've sold. I'll be offering our plasma and surround sound system to the guy who's bought our house and hopefully he takes me up on it.

#15 graham johnson

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Posted 10 July 2011 - 01:38 PM

. This shows a hell of a lot more about how YOUR mind works.


What does my indignation at you thinking about ripping someone off tell you about how my mind works ??

Explain !!!!!!!!!

#16 OzyColin

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Posted 10 July 2011 - 02:00 PM

Having sold real estate for a few years, one of THE most important aspects to a smooth ownership transition (and there are many!) is a clear unambiguous understanding between the seller (vendor) and the purchasor.

Blybo - personally, I think it's an EXCELLENT question and i thank you for posting it up :winky:

Whilst there is the dictionary definition of fixtures and chattels, throwing these at a vendor or seller in situations of 'misunderstanding' will rarely, if ever, solve the problem and apese the parties. Waring vendors/purchasers are one of the top nightmares to be avoided.

A GOOD agent, when signing up a listing, will take the time to ensure any anexures to the selling (and other exchangeable) contracts clearly states what is being sold. Including 'fixtures'.

In that case Blybo, I'd be asking your purchasing agent, or the selling agent (if you are dealing with him/her direct) IF the TV is included in the sale. Even if it's not expressly stated that it is not I wouldn't personally persue that if he says it isn't. In which case, once again, a good agent should append a co-signed appendum.

Mind you, you might be suprised that the vendor agrees or agrees to sell it to you at a very reduced price for convenience. Either way, ensure the Agent covers this in writing with a written contract annexure signed by all parties. :)

Hope that helps mate! B)

#17 blybo

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Posted 10 July 2011 - 03:05 PM

What does my indignation at you thinking about ripping someone off tell you about how my mind works ??

Explain !!!!!!!!!

Cause you immediately think I'm trying to rip somebody off. What's to say it's not included? It's certainly not excluded. I can't ask prior to sale because it's too late for that and I never thought to ask about that or a few other things prior to purchasing. I know the vendor will be renting while he uses the funds to build again so he wont be able to wall mount it in a rental property. Maybe he'll want the latest and greatest for that new house he's building, maybe he threw the stand out when he mounted the TV. Who knows, I don't and either do you.

The definition of fixtures is very ambiguous and it wouldnt be unreasonable to say that the bracket is simply the device used for attaching the tv to the wall. There are also workbenches built to suit the dimensions of the garage, I considered them fixtures too and assume they are staying but there's a fair chance they are free standing.

Again explain to me why a dishwasher should stay yet a wall mounted tv should go? Convention more than anything I'd suggest, but it's only in the last few years that TV's have commonly been wall mounted so perhaps convention will change in this regard.

#18 diesel

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Posted 10 July 2011 - 03:24 PM

When I purchased my house, the vendor had two wall mounted CRTs (on those hospital style swivel mounts) that they made clear were not staying. In one case they also were removing the wall mount but would make good. the 2nd wall mount remained.

In the same way, in the house I sold to buy this one, I advised the agent to make sure that potential buyers knoew that the dishwasher and my wall-mounted speakers were coming with me.

I would ask the agent to clarify if the owner will be making good on the location of the current TV and seeing what the response is. In my view, you could argue that the TV was not specified as being excluded, therefore you could expect that it was included in the sale, and I suppose depending on the age of it, the owner may be happy to get rid of it an upgrade when they get to their new home. But I wouldn't expect that a TV is included just because it's wall mounted.

EDIT: The previous owner in my house also had a pool table in the rumpus that they said was excluded. I was willing to buy it off them and save them the hassle of moving it to Tamworth, but they declined and wanted to keep it...

Edited by diesel, 10 July 2011 - 03:27 PM.


#19 graham johnson

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Posted 10 July 2011 - 03:30 PM

Cause you immediately think I'm trying to rip somebody off. What's to say it's not included? It's certainly not excluded. I can't ask prior to sale because it's too late for that and I never thought to ask about that or a few other things prior to purchasing. I know the vendor will be renting while he uses the funds to build again so he wont be able to wall mount it in a rental property. Maybe he'll want the latest and greatest for that new house he's building, maybe he threw the stand out when he mounted the TV. Who knows, I don't and either do you.

The definition of fixtures is very ambiguous and it wouldnt be unreasonable to say that the bracket is simply the device used for attaching the tv to the wall. There are also workbenches built to suit the dimensions of the garage, I considered them fixtures too and assume they are staying but there's a fair chance they are free standing.

Again explain to me why a dishwasher should stay yet a wall mounted tv should go? Convention more than anything I'd suggest, but it's only in the last few years that TV's have commonly been wall mounted so perhaps convention will change in this regard.


Well My take on this is that you signed the contract NOT expecting to get the TV. Then started the think "well could I get it" If you had an expectation that you SHOULD get the tele you would have made sure it was written into the contract. If you are unsure about whether its included or not its an easy and quick call to the agent to clarify that.

IMO the dishwasher is a kitchen appliance in the same way as the cook top and the oven and is. It is connected to the waste water and fresh water systems which IMO makes it a fixture. Unless its specified in the contract by the seller they are taking it.

Look, I am sorry if I took issue and implied you where a crook, Obviously I don't know if you are or not. The point I am trying to make it seems like you are thinking out loud about whether to try it on or not and seemed to be trying to garner support for the idea.

IMO that is just plainly WRONG. IF you had a reasonable expectation you where going to get the TV, you would have written it into the contract. To try to do it later by insisting its a fixture then trying to screw the seller out of it is extremely wrong and not in the spirit of the sale. Its like expecting a trolley hooded BBQ is going to stay cause its connected to a natural gas tap outside and not equipped with a gas bottle.

I hope you can see the parallel? Its not going to happen unless its written into the contract.

Real Estate agents have a LOT to answer for. The standard contract of sale is rubbish but them keep using it. Every contract we have signed like that is inclusive of a list of EVERYTHING we expected to stay.

The last house we bought has a huge split system air con which was still sitting in the box unused. We made a point of stating we required the air con to stay as part of the deal.

Then after we settled and i tried to install it. I found out the vendors had dropped the compressor box from about 4 feet and physically destroyed the control board and bent the casing etc etc. Took me ages to fix. and the vendors obviously knew and said nothing. seeing it had been sitting there uninstalled for 4 years they had occupied the house.

Edited by graham johnson, 10 July 2011 - 03:46 PM.


#20 jimval

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Posted 10 July 2011 - 03:40 PM

IMO that is just plainly WRONG. IF you had a reasonable expectation you where going to get the TV, you would have written it into the contract. To try to do it later by insisting its a fixture then trying to screw the seller out of it is extremely wrong and not in the spirit of the sale.


I agree 100%.

If the purchaser manages to "win" the argument and keep the TV, do you really think it will still work when the the new owner moves in. :rolleyes:

Edited by jimval, 10 July 2011 - 03:48 PM.


#21 myrantz

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Posted 10 July 2011 - 03:41 PM

YMMV but in WA when purchasing a property there is a section in the contract that both seller and buyer can agree to and it overrides previous sections..

Technically, anything bolted or fixed is consider a fixture, and that falls under building. Everything else is considered contents, and is not part of the sale unless it's part of the contract..

so an example a kitchen cabinet is a fixture, a kitchen sink is a fixture. But a dining table is not, paintings on the wall is not, Unless of coz it's fixed and then it falls under that special section again...

If i'm buying a house, I would assume a TV mount is a fixture.. The TV of coz is not (like a painting)... But of coz I will check with the agent first to confirm and list it in that "special section" that is part of fixture. The reason for doing that is because removing the mount may weaken the wall or something... :ninja:... Conversely if I deem that mount to be a problem, I will write in that section to have the mount removed and the wall patched up and inspected before the final inspection handover, etc...

Really it's up to the buyer and the seller.. IIRC everything unwritten favours the seller.. But if you have it written down in contract, as a buyer you get a bit more leverage when the worst happens...

i.e. if you want the TV, but it's not said so in the contract, you won't get it... ;)

#22 blybo

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Posted 10 July 2011 - 04:24 PM

Ill be asking the agent tomorrow and will not fight or have a hissy fit if they say no. If he wants to sell it and it's a newish quality model I might think about it. But I will be asking that the wall be made good if the tv goes as their bracket may well be too big for my 42" plasma but to leave cabling exposed and labelled if it remains.

I wonder weather a non AV enthusiast would have the same view that the mount is separate to the TV. Same argument could be used for a split system air con. They have a bracket which they sit on too but they are considered a fixture. In fact just about everything these days is mounted using a mount or bracket. Only a few years ago when dishwashers were considered a luxury item they were often removed by the vendor, now virtually nobody does, it is assumed that they stay unless in the list of exclusions.

Technically I could use the same reasoning to keep a heap of storage accessories that clip on to a bracket on my garage walls. I'm leaving it all as in my view it's part of the garage.

#23 com5984

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Posted 10 July 2011 - 04:56 PM

when I sold my place they asked if the tv could stay and offered me a grand for it, which was fair so I left it..

#24 pgdownload

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Posted 10 July 2011 - 08:02 PM

If the TV goes, as i expect, then the wall must be restored to it's original condition.

That's confusing 'rental' law with other laws. As far as a home buyer is concerned 'original condition' is the condition of the house when they bought it.

There's a rich history of what a buyer buys when they buy a house. Oven, dishwasher (not fridge), blinds/curtains, light fixtures (not bulbs) etc. Wall mounted TVs are a new concept (variation) so its up to the buyer to clarify ahead of time. Sans that, the buyer gets the wall mount but not the TV.

Regards

Peter Gillespie

#25 blybo

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Posted 10 July 2011 - 10:22 PM

That's confusing 'rental' law with other laws. As far as a home buyer is concerned 'original condition' is the condition of the house when they bought it.

There's a rich history of what a buyer buys when they buy a house. Oven, dishwasher (not fridge), blinds/curtains, light fixtures (not bulbs) etc. Wall mounted TVs are a new concept (variation) so its up to the buyer to clarify ahead of time. Sans that, the buyer gets the wall mount but not the TV.

Regards

Peter Gillespie

Well we were told when selling our place that we either include our equipment in the sale or remove it completely