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Freeview Vs. Dvb


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#76 DrP

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Posted 24 March 2012 - 09:26 AM

And now that I've had time to check, once again N&N is woefully incorrect on 7mate - EIT changed approx 5 mins into a show and approx 5 mins after the show.

Accurate to the minute? Yeah, right.

Edited by DrP, 24 March 2012 - 09:27 AM.


#77 DrP

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 06:40 AM

... and we're off! Being Human (US edition as shown on ELEVEN) has gained another CRID, different to the one it had last week.

#78 pgdownload

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 08:58 AM

Funnily enough no posts yet complaining about missed recordings or the like. Bound to get one eventually though...

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#79 DrP

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 01:57 PM

Probably because there are stuff all freeview recorders out there. Funnily enough the manufacturers , by their own words, are hesitant to release products because of demonstratable freeview EPG issues. Of course, that little detail is something that should be put aside with the only other possible conclusion being that since no one is complaining there mustn't be any problem.

I'm sure if you go to Easter Island you'll hear no complaints about much at all. Conclusion: Everything's roses!

#80 pgdownload

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 02:46 PM

There are a few models and presumably the people that bought them did so for the "Never miss another show again" claim. Plenty of people post if a PVR that doesn't offer any such functionality fails to record a show they like. I would have thought there'd be at least one person quick to complain - forums like this are pretty renowned for having a strong negative bias.

I can't explain why there have been no complaints yet, but the simplest explanation would be there's nothing to complain about. Maybe the Freeview tech is a little more robust than first thought and despite issue like changing CRIDs the shows are still being recorded?

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Peter Gillespie

#81 DrP

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 03:36 PM

Perhaps there aren't many forum members, so far I can only count two that have admitted to purchasing such, that actually have freeview EPG based PVRs. Has there been 'one person' that made complaints? Why yes. Yes there has. One of those two people in fact.

#82 prl

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Posted 05 April 2012 - 07:10 PM

Probably because there are stuff all freeview recorders out there. Funnily enough the manufacturers , by their own words, are hesitant to release products because of demonstratable freeview EPG issues. ...

There are currently only three Freeview EPG manufacturers listed by Freeview: Bush, Grundig and MagicTV.

#83 DrP

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Posted 06 April 2012 - 05:46 AM

That's right and it's something I'm well aware of. Stay tuned (to this thread, not FTA).

#84 DrP

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Posted 09 April 2012 - 04:49 AM

On another topic... well not really... as hard as it may be to believe, Being Human (US edition) on ELEVEN as carried by SCA has yet another CRID.

#85 DrP

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Posted 18 April 2012 - 05:21 AM

WIN's CRIDs have always been a bit 'special' frequently flip flipping between expected values such as /184927 and /CSINY (yes, that's right, a contracted version of the show title) but now it seems to be going off the deep end as the days pass. Shows are changing their CRIDs as time wears on to something like this..

/b5b62b3578c84a3f92c2a575027852c8
/2d4062e237d5405b9c45877e2332da34
/b5b62b3578c84a3f92c2a575027852c8

..... and those are just the series IDs. The same is seen for the episode part too.

.... and why does Season 4, Episode 1 of Nurse Jackie have the CRID 4879, but Season 4 Episode 2 have the CRID 4940? It must be a different 'series'.

... and why has Burn Notice changed from CRID /2875 to /4890 halfway through the season?

.... and why has Touched By An Angel only ever had one CRID with the entire show dumped into it?

... and why is CSI: NY have all its episodes under one CRID (excepting the flip flopping mentioned before)?

... and why is Dexer S5, ep 1 2 4 under CRID /1814, ep 3 5 7 8 under CRID /4213, ep 6 under CRID /4415 and ep 10 11 12 9 under CRID /4623?

... and why is S1 and S3 of Offspring mixed into CRID /745?

.... and to add further variety other shows are broken down cleanly into one season per CRID.

A CRID means anything and nothing. It might mark a particular season of a show, but it might not as well. It might mark a particular screening of a cluster of episodes of a show, but it might not as well. It might mark a particular show, but it might not as well (ie, different programs with the same CRID). It might <insert just about thing you feel like here and the inversion of it, heck include making a cup of coffee as well because it probably indicates that too>.

Consistency. There ain't none. Let's get a little.

Nary a week passes where there isn't something odd with the freeview EPG.

Edited by DrP, 18 April 2012 - 07:10 AM.


#86 Digital Penetration

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Posted 18 April 2012 - 09:14 AM

WIN's CRIDs have always been a bit 'special' frequently flip flipping between expected values such as /184927 and /CSINY (yes, that's right, a contracted version of the show title) but now it seems to be going off the deep end as the days pass.


Is this why epgscan <http://sourceforge.n...jects/epgscan/> has been having such a lot of problems lately with WIN's ota epg?

#87 DrP

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Posted 18 April 2012 - 11:33 AM

Unlikely. WIN doesn't (or didn't last time I looked which was admittedly some time ago) transmit the CRIDs in its general EPG data, only the 'now & next' events have (had) it.

#88 DrP

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 04:59 PM

Stay tuned (to this thread, not FTA).


Rather than making this a long winded technical post I'm stripping it back down to the basics, ie, how the 'accurate recordings' perform.

By special arrangement I have three freeview EPG PVRs sitting on the bench in my home workshop in order to see if predicted behaviour still matches observed behaviour. I fully expected that it would take a few weeks before various issues I've highlighted could be reproduced. How wrong I was.


If only a few seconds of program was missed I will note that. Generally the misses are far more than that.

Day 1:
The Return of the Magnificent Seven: Topped and tailed
Fifth Gear: large chunk of end missing
Warehouse 13: 26 mins of Chaser, 34 mins of Warehouse 13, large chunk of end missing
Being Human (US): 1st episode missing end, 2nd episode recorded entirely
Ringer: recorded entirely
Dirk Gently: missing a few seconds of the beginning.

Day 2:
Warehouse 13: chunk of beginning missing
Californication: chunk of end missing
Nurse Jackie: chunk of end missing
Being Human (UK): recorded entirely
Dad's Army: chunk of end missing

Day 3:
Adam 12: approx 10 mins of start missing
Charmed: recorded in full
Yes, Minister: This one is a bit curious, the PVRs woke up, sat on GEM and then did nothing more. It seems that the trigger they were waiting for never came.
I Dream of Jeannie: failed in the same way. This is the first freeview EPG based recordings I've made from WIN. I wonder if WIN has cocked something up.
Dad's Army: did not record, EIT mismatch?
Charmed (repeat of earlier ep): recorded in full
Warehouse 13: chunk of beginning missing
The Sweeny: last half of show missed
Medium: end missed
The Good Wife: end missed
Adam Hills: first few seconds of beginning missed

I think I'll stop at this point. After three days the results speak for themselves.

Edited by DrP, 26 April 2012 - 06:27 AM.


#89 digitalj

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 05:31 PM

NBN in my area never seems to have accurate timing on the EIT Guide, everything is either on the hour or half hour.

#90 DrP

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 05:40 PM

CRIDs in the N&N events is the part that really matters for the accurate recording feature. All else could be gobble-de-gook even the event start, duration and even title.

#91 digitalj

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 05:46 PM

here is the EIT guide for all NBN services in my area:

http://www.dtvforum....attach_id=13330

Notice that NBN/GO!/GEM all use to the half-hour timing, while eXtra (the ad channel) uses to the second timing?

Edited by digitalj, 23 April 2012 - 06:30 PM.


#92 prl

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Posted 24 April 2012 - 08:37 PM

Rather than making this a long winded technical post I'm stripping it back down to the basics, ie, how the 'accurate recordings' perform.

By special arrangement I have three freeview EPG PVRs sitting on the bench in my home workshop in order to see if predicted behaviour still matches observed behaviour. I fully expected that it would take a few weeks before various issues I've highlighted could be reproduced. How wrong I was.
[lots of errors]

Even if the Freeview EPG and/or the N&N data was exact to the second, as long as the actual broadcast schedule is the same as the schedule used to create the timers, there will always be some recordings that can't be recorded in full, even if the nominal schedule says that they can.

E.g. on any single-tuner PVR (for simplicity):
Program A on service 1: nominal 20:30-21:30 actual 20:38-21:45
Program B on service 2: nominal 21:30-22:30 actual 21:35-22:37

Something's going to give here. Similar scenarios are easily constructed for dual tuner PVRs.

I'm sure that DrP is aware of this, and the problems he refers to may well not be impossible situations like that, but there's just no getting away from the fact that if the broadcasters say that programs are going to run for given times, and they don't, then there's no way you can guarantee that you'll record the whole of any program, even if the schedule says that you should be able to do within the technical limits of your PVR..

#93 pgdownload

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Posted 24 April 2012 - 10:43 PM

Even if the Freeview EPG and/or the N&N data was exact to the second, as long as the actual broadcast schedule is the same as the schedule used to create the timers, there will always be some recordings that can't be recorded in full, even if the nominal schedule says that they can.

Not sure what the point is here? You say 'exact to the second' but then given an example 5-8 minutes out? Lets pretend that the broadcast EPG is exact to the second - then yes given the limitations of tuner numbers some portions of some shows will be missed.

But then lets pretend the networks really try to hit scheduled times. To a human 2-5 seconds out is not a big deal. To a PC (PVR) its the same as if its 2-5 minutes out. It still needs a bunch of logic programmed into it to enable it to make 'intelligent' guesses about what it should be recording. So far, very few PVRs that I've seen make any attempt to make an intelligent guess about what it should record. Even the Tivo with its priority thumbs up and down rankings doesn't use them to decide what it should record or not (AFAIK).

Ultimately each network is its own island. They are not looking to enable you to view other networks. They are trying to improve their product so that you can record/watch their shows with reliability. Why would you ask them to ensure a rival business gets a free pass?

Regards

Peter Gillespie

#94 prl

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Posted 24 April 2012 - 11:08 PM

Not sure what the point is here? You say 'exact to the second' but then given an example 5-8 minutes out? Lets pretend that the broadcast EPG is exact to the second - then yes given the limitations of tuner numbers some portions of some shows will be missed.
...

I'm talking about the actual situation where broadcasters publish weekly schedules, don't adhere to them, and are supposed to publish N&N times that reflect actual broadcast times. I'm pointing out that in that situation, there will always be problems with recording shows where shows that are advertised through the weekly schedule as being consecutive but actually overlap. I'm not sure what is unclear.

#95 DrP

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Posted 25 April 2012 - 02:20 AM

Even if the Freeview EPG and/or the N&N data was exact to the second, as long as the actual broadcast schedule is the same as the schedule used to create the timers, there will always be some recordings that can't be recorded in full, even if the nominal schedule says that they can.


Freeview PVRs appear to be configured to park a tuner on the desired channel well before the event starts. Where padding is available (why does a freeview PVR need padding given 'accurate recording'?) reducing it to the minimum results in the PVRs being on channel well before the EPG listed event time, even earlier than the padding would suggest.

Bearing this in mind events have been chosen to specifically avoid situations where there would be a hidden clash. Freeview EPG series events have been selected so that there is a guard band around each event where a tuner was free to cope with early start and late finish. This considerably reduces the usefulness of a dual tuner PVR.

Claiming inaccurate EPG times and/or competitve forces between the networks causing shows to deliberately be run off schedule is responsible for missed / partial recordings is no longer a refuge. Recall that one of Freeview's features is so called 'accurate recording'. No guessing. No inferring. The PVR is supposedly directed to record by the broadcast to ensure a full recording is made.

As an aside the freeview EPG is slow to navigate. So slow that often I find I overshoot the day / time slot because even though I've released the button the EPG applet it is still in the process of seeking. The EPG on Austar's old (these boxes have been around for years and years and have considerably less capable CPUs than the modern freeview PVRs) non-PVR box is far far more responsive.

Edited by DrP, 25 April 2012 - 02:50 AM.


#96 DrP

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Posted 25 April 2012 - 08:08 AM

How does a freeview PVR cope with the changing CRIDs I've often mentioned, specifically WIN's recent and apparently ongoing change of short IDs to excessively long ones? It doesn't.

The PVRs consider them to be a different series that you did not nominate for recording. If I was using a freeview EPG based PVR I'd have to regularly scour the freeview EPG (given its slowness this would not be at all enjoyable) to ensure that things I've previously set to series record have not fallen off the series recording list otherwise my recordings would have more holes than the proverbial piece of cheese.

For me, text title tracking would be a more reliable method.

Edited by DrP, 25 April 2012 - 08:10 AM.


#97 prl

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Posted 25 April 2012 - 02:52 PM

Freeview PVRs appear to be configured to park a tuner on the desired channel well before the event starts. Where padding is available (why does a freeview PVR need padding given 'accurate recording'?) reducing it to the minimum results in the PVRs being on channel well before the EPG listed event time, even earlier than the padding would suggest.

Bearing this in mind events have been chosen to specifically avoid situations where there would be a hidden clash. Freeview EPG series events have been selected so that there is a guard band around each event where a tuner was free to cope with early start and late finish. This considerably reduces the usefulness of a dual tuner PVR.

I'd guessed that you were not looking much at how well the PVRs cope with clashes caused by programs not running to schedule. However, even if the Freeview data and PVR worked perfectly, as long as the TV stations don't run programs to the published schedule, clashes between actual run times of programs that aren't supposed to clash can always result in incomplete recordings.

Claiming inaccurate EPG times and/or competitve forces between the networks causing shows to deliberately be run off schedule is responsible for missed / partial recordings is no longer a refuge. Recall that one of Freeview's features is so called 'accurate recording'. No guessing. No inferring. The PVR is supposedly directed to record by the broadcast to ensure a full recording is made.

Yes, I know they claim that. But it can't be done with current actual broadcasting schedule practices (even if they get CRIDs and N&N data correct). I'm not sure which is more worrying, that they know the claim is wrong and say it anyway, or that they believe the claim is true.

#98 DrP

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Posted 25 April 2012 - 06:02 PM

The freeview guide and EIT guide disagree on what is on 7two right now. Freeview says Dad's Army. EIT says Who's The Boss. Actually showing is Dad's Army. The PVRs have parked on 7TWO but have not started to record.

#99 DrP

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Posted 29 April 2012 - 10:42 AM

I wonder if WIN has cocked something up.


Yes WIN has. WIN is not presently transmitting the CRIDs in the N&N sections. If the fact that the freeview PVRs did not start recording WIN programming in these circumstances isn't a dead giveaway that freeview is indeed using the N&N events to trigger recording, I don't know what would be.

#100 M'bozo

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Posted 29 April 2012 - 01:37 PM

Nothing to do with this?


Yes, I know it's old news. And behind a firewall, (easily overcome.)