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Ps50c7000 Ps58c7000 Ps63c7000 3d Ghosting / Crosstalk Issues


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#51 marauderxp

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Posted 15 December 2010 - 01:41 PM

Nope, nothing doing so far. But I was a bit stunned at your probs with Samsung Service. Where abouts are you? I've had quite a few service calls/bookings here with the QLD Samsung Customer Service Plaza and I can't speak highly enough of them. They've been outstanding. Sounds like it's not the same for all of their places.

The Panasonic looks good but no 2d->3d conversion :( . That will be in their vt25 models next year.

But yeah I'm growing more impatient too as time goes on. I've got a couple of the 3d films I want to view but been holding off because the ghosting just destroys the viewing pleasure hey.

#52 Tiles

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Posted 15 December 2010 - 02:14 PM

Nope, nothing doing so far. But I was a bit stunned at your probs with Samsung Service. Where abouts are you? I've had quite a few service calls/bookings here with the QLD Samsung Customer Service Plaza and I can't speak highly enough of them. They've been outstanding. Sounds like it's not the same for all of their places.

The Panasonic looks good but no 2d->3d conversion :( . That will be in their vt25 models next year.

But yeah I'm growing more impatient too as time goes on. I've got a couple of the 3d films I want to view but been holding off because the ghosting just destroys the viewing pleasure hey.

yea no im in sydney and we dont have the service plaza up and running so its just talking to a different gig on the phone each time who knows nothing. Think ill probly try for the replacement set as saw a guy in england i think on a forum saying they tried changing mother board etc which did nothing so they replaced it and he said the new set is unbelievable absolulely no crosstalk at all watching MVA or playing his ps3 where it was terrible b4. Didnt really wanna go panasonic as ive still got one of their plasma and love it but think their 3d's are a ripoff compared to the samsung when it works properly. Just wanna get this sorted now as dont think much will happen over xmas and new year. If you do happen to try any of the other 3d movies can you post your experience with them crosstalk wise as i havent been able to get my hands on any decent ones to try out as jbs always sold out.. much appreciated

Edited by Tiles, 15 December 2010 - 02:19 PM.


#53 marauderxp

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Posted 15 December 2010 - 02:38 PM

Hmm very interesting.

Because apart from the motherboard and firmware, I can't see how anything (the panel) could cause more ghosting than others. The only remote idea is maybe perhaps something to do with the 3d transmitter on the TV,but that's quite a stretch? Did that english guy in the forums say what version firmware the new set is on?
And the guy from Samsung that rang last week said after he installed the new firmware, he too noticed more.

But nothing to lose I guess anyway?

In re to 3d material, well the best rendered one I've watched so far is Avatar. It's probably the best reference to use. But I didn't see that before the new updates. The only ones I've seen before the updates was my record of some of Origin 3d and the demo loops. All show ghosting whereas before they didn't. But it's a bit frustrating here because I had my set replaced for something else. Those updates came at the same time.

#54 andys

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Posted 15 December 2010 - 06:49 PM

The Panasonic looks good but no 2d->3d conversion :( . That will be in their vt25 models next year.

You could easily live without 2d >3d conversion. The more native 3D content you see the less impressive 2d>3d becomes. It's at its best on animation and maybe some games, but that's about it. I haven't used it in ages. I hope Samsung fix the fw asap, otherwise I can see a VT moving into my house! B)

Andys.

#55 Tiles

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Posted 15 December 2010 - 07:30 PM

Hmm very interesting.

Because apart from the motherboard and firmware, I can't see how anything (the panel) could cause more ghosting than others. The only remote idea is maybe perhaps something to do with the 3d transmitter on the TV,but that's quite a stretch? Did that english guy in the forums say what version firmware the new set is on?
And the guy from Samsung that rang last week said after he installed the new firmware, he too noticed more.

But nothing to lose I guess anyway?

In re to 3d material, well the best rendered one I've watched so far is Avatar. It's probably the best reference to use. But I didn't see that before the new updates. The only ones I've seen before the updates was my record of some of Origin 3d and the demo loops. All show ghosting whereas before they didn't. But it's a bit frustrating here because I had my set replaced for something else. Those updates came at the same time.

I'm guessing the guy from samsung didn't mention which firmware he was updating from, wheather it was from a couple of months ago or from one of the 3000's? Would be interesting to know as it sounds like the panel he upgraded firmware on was displaying crosstalk already and it just increased after the upgrade.
Only because I really studied the DJ's and Myer displays for a long time before buying at the end of september and the main thing I was looking for was any sign of ghosting as this was the main reason I did not buy the LED (along with shite angle viewing, motion and the price). I never once saw it in any of the bad scenes where I knew it should have been if it were going to happen, hence I bought the plasma.

I have seen plenty of people around the world in forums saying they have seen zero crosstalk on their sets and they supposedly know what they are looking for after stating they've seen it on the panasonics.
My point is I think we should be able to expect pretty close to no crosstalk and possibly there is a fault with our sets and many others. There's many sets which were faulty with the abnormally loud buzzing and the uk had a lot of trouble with sets doing the blinking thing and losing the picture.
And possibly Marauderxp when you received the new set it was faulty with the 3d but because the new firmware updates were released around the same time we have blamed them. I spose the only way we could tell is if someone who has had the same set for over 6 months or so and never experienced any ghosting on 3d (there are people out there) and then watching the exact same content after upgrading the recent firmware versions experienced ghosting for the first time, then I guess we could pretty well say it is the firmware.

Marauderxp how was the ghosting on avatar 3d? Was it really bad like MVA or fairly minimal?
Below is a forum where the guy from the UK (pretty sure as other guys on there are) had terrible crosstalk on MVA and PS3 games but then after having mother boards etc. changed, crosstalk was eliminated all together after he had the set replaced with a new brand one.
He started the thread in late august and his firmware when he had the problem he states was V1016 so I'm not sure if it all matches our problems but just check out the thread, he states in quote #59 page 2 that he recieved his new set and the crosstalk is not there.

http://www.avforums....k-ghosting.html

Edited by Tiles, 15 December 2010 - 07:35 PM.


#56 marauderxp

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Posted 15 December 2010 - 08:53 PM

Heyy Tiles, thanks for the info. You make good sense.

Read that thread and yeah pretty interesting that a new set did fix his crosstalk probs. I'm really tempted to get another replacement set. The samsung guy who noticed more crosstalk after upgrading was originally on 3002, which I did find a bit odd.

You are spot on that we should expect (almost) no crosstalk. And I've seen proof that this Samsung model TV CAN have zero crosstalk as was the case with my old set.
I'm getting tired of waiting and checking for a firmware update to fix it, one which now seems doubtful it will ever come?

And yep the ghosting was as bad on Avatar as with anything else. And that was framepacked, whereas the others were side-by-side. So mode doesn't matter.

So I just don't know. Still wonder about the firmware because of how you didn't notice any ghosting on those in-store sets.
So the question is, wait a bit longer for a hopeful firmware update or get a replacement?
What do u think????

#57 Black beard

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Posted 16 December 2010 - 06:39 AM

I guys. Just wanted to say that I've just discovered this thread and I have a 58c7000 which I purchased 3 weeks ago after numerous views in different retailers, as well as an extended demo at a friends place who has the exact same model.

I can honestly say that I didn't notice any cross talk at all on any of those occasions, but have been disappointed after seeing it time and time again on my set with various sources (some much worse than others).

After reading thru this thread - I'm now kicking myself, because the very second thing I did when I set up my panel (after tuning the FTA channels), was check for, and update the firmware - 3002 or 3003 was the version that it upgraded to. It's starting to sound like I might have been able to enjoy beautiful cross talk free 3d if I hadn't done the firmware upgrade - but obviously I can't say for sure because I didn't test 3d before hand. I think it is safe to say however that none of the ones in the stores would have had their firmware upgraded (their hardpressed being connected to HDMI inputs let alone being connected to the net to allow the update <_< ), and I'm pretty sure the friends one wouldn't have been firmware upgraded from whatever it was shipped with either.

So far - my 3d content and experience has been as follows:
* Cloudy w/ chance of Meatballs 3d BD - The best I've seen so far, but cross talk is evident throughout most of the movie
* numerous "framepacked" 3d games on the Ps3 - Very noticable cross talk, but if you really really try hard not to notice it, you can sometimes ignore it
* 3d Avatar game on xbox360 (side by side mode) - Extremely noticable cross talk - to the point where I find it impossible to get "immersed" in the game
* some demo 3d material downloaded from the internet (all side-by-side) - Some of these are boarderline unwatchable IMHO

So what do you guys think is the best course of action for me? Should I initiate a "service call" with samsung, or hold out a bit longer for a firmware that fixes this? I think it's encouraging that there is a guy within Samsung AU tech support who is investigating it - but as someone who works for a large multi-national company myself, I know how hard it is for one person to effect change in such an environment. Especially considering the firmwares probably come from a different division in Korea (or India??), who will no doubt not want to hear from some lowly support tech from "down under" who is claiming their firmware is "breaking" 3d.

#58 MLXXX

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Posted 16 December 2010 - 07:55 AM

Got a call from Samsung earlier today asking a few questions about the crosstalk problem as he was preparing a report to send to HQ in about 5 mins. He said he himself tested it out by updating firmware and noticed more crosstalk too. He said HQ were "jumping up and down about it" and want the problem fixed. So hopefully next week some time we might have a firmware fix.

The above was just 6 days ago. It sounded promising. Marauderxp, any way of speaking to the same guy, or someone else in his section of Samsung, to check for progress?

Edited by MLXXX, 16 December 2010 - 05:11 PM.


#59 Tiles

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Posted 16 December 2010 - 09:11 AM

Heyy Tiles, thanks for the info. You make good sense.

Read that thread and yeah pretty interesting that a new set did fix his crosstalk probs. I'm really tempted to get another replacement set. The samsung guy who noticed more crosstalk after upgrading was originally on 3002, which I did find a bit odd.

You are spot on that we should expect (almost) no crosstalk. And I've seen proof that this Samsung model TV CAN have zero crosstalk as was the case with my old set.
I'm getting tired of waiting and checking for a firmware update to fix it, one which now seems doubtful it will ever come?

And yep the ghosting was as bad on Avatar as with anything else. And that was framepacked, whereas the others were side-by-side. So mode doesn't matter.

So I just don't know. Still wonder about the firmware because of how you didn't notice any ghosting on those in-store sets.
So the question is, wait a bit longer for a hopeful firmware update or get a replacement?
What do u think????

ill probly ring david jones where i bought it and explain the situation to them. I dont expect to get anywhere with this before or over the christmas period but if they can get me a replacement i wont be upgrading the firmware just incase, but if that one diplays the same crosstalk then its refund-ville for me. Im not waiting around for a firmware update which no one can tell us for sure is coming. Like black beard has stated he never saw it before and when he gets his, bam its there . Either firmware or some other problem with a fair quantity of there tvs but i would be getting a straight replacement from the retailer you purchased from if i were you.

Edited by Tiles, 16 December 2010 - 08:49 PM.


#60 herbee

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Posted 16 December 2010 - 09:21 AM

Hello everyone.

I am following this thread for about a week now and today I decided to register in order to be able to report what I experienced with my TV set.

First of all sorry for my not so good English (I am from Germany).

Let me assure you, in Germany there are quite a few people with exactly the same problem right after having updated to FW 3003 or 3005.1 (and I have also seen people in French forums talking about these issues so this cannot be a coincidence, can it?).

I received my new TV Set (it is a PS50C6970 which uses exactly the same firmware as the models mentioned in the topic of this thread) about two weeks ago. The firmware that came pre-installed with the TV was 2002.
I was quite happy with the TV as 3D (and of course 2D) looked really good so besides watching some 3D-movies I also started to test all the 3D-compatible games I could find. Especially the latter seem to be a good indicator about the limits of the TV's 3D capabilities so I checked these by trying some games using PS3 and Xbox 360 (for example Call of Duty, Wipeout, Motorstorm 3D Rift, etc.).
Nearly every game showed some crosstalk in certain scenes but it was not very much and quite unobtrusive (in movies crosstalk appeared even less frequently). Unfortunately my shutter glasses seemed to loose sync with the TV from time to time so I decided to update to a new firmware and installed 3003.

5 minutes later the TV was running under the new firmware and I had to find out that not only the glasses were still loosing sync (a problem that can be solved by putting some adhesive tape on the IR sensor of the glasses) but also, at a moment's notice, crosstalk was much more visible.
It is really annoying and updating to 3005.1 (which was available over the Samsung website of Australia and New Zealand days before it came out in Europe) did not help even a bit. Technical service and the Samsung-Hotline weren't much use to me either and like many others with this problem I am thinking now of returning the TV and buying a Panasonic (which unfortunately is more expensive than my Samsung TV).

Many greetings
Herb

Edited by herbee, 16 December 2010 - 10:07 AM.


#61 Tiles

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Posted 16 December 2010 - 12:03 PM

thanks herb for leaving your experience i think after reading this that we can pretty much say it is most probly the 3000's firmware which has created the crosstalk we all experience, but the problem is i think marauderxp was told technicians can only restore the one previous firmware so for you herb they may be able to fix yours back to the previous firmware as long as you have only upgraded it once (i hope for your sake you have) but i also finally got an email back from a "tech" stating it can only be restored back to a firmware of the same series but i dont think he knew what he was talking about as he told me stuff which made no sense. This goes with our theory earlier that europe was experiencing the same problems as they are on the same firmware. Keep us posted herb thanks again

#62 herbee

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Posted 16 December 2010 - 08:30 PM

The technician I spoke to explained, that he is not allowed to install a lower firmware on my TV (at that moment I came from 2002 and had updated only to 3003, now I'm on 3005.1 btw). Samsung expressly prohibits this (probably due to some more hacker-friendly lower firmwares or something like that).
To be honest, these technical services (which are, at least in my area, independent electrical shops) seem to be mostly interested in putting down as many 'repairs' as possible to Samsungs account. That's why they wanted to exchange some parts of my TV set (I don't remember the parts' names exactly) even though it is very obvious that this won't fix the problems induced by the new firmware (especially when considering the comments of other users who were in exactly the same situation and where exchanging some parts did not help a bit). Since I explained these concerns to the technician I have never heard of him again (even though he wanted to contact me by the beginning of this week).

I can only hope that Samsung really becomes aware of this special issue with (apparently affecting especially) their Plasma-TVs and that they are going to release a better firmware soon...

#63 Tiles

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Posted 16 December 2010 - 08:44 PM

rang David Jones this arvo where I purchased the tv and told them the trouble i've had with samsung. I explained how they never turned up for the scheduled service call and haven't called and that I now would prefer to have the set replaced as it's only 2.5 months old. I also told her I've only had access to try the 3d in the last couple of weeks as that's when the starter kit came and the ghosting was bad upon testing it out.
She's going to see what head office says so I'll be waiting for a call I guess.
Bit anxious about a replacement set as my set only buzz's occasionly and not too loud, and haven't had any other problems but I'm over being told nothing by the samsung drones and waiting for a maybe firmware fix.
Can someone tell me how to upload pictures from my camera to this thread? I took some photos of the crosstalk for anyone wondering if there's is bad or not.
Obviously it doesn't look as noticable on camera looking through the lense as it is very dark but you can make out the crosstalk and get any idea what it would look like alot brighter and looking through both lenses normally (obviously seeing the ghosting left and right of the object - not pretty!!).

#64 herbee

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Posted 16 December 2010 - 08:55 PM

Maybe you could try imageshack.us for uploading pictures?

In the meantime I found a nice thread about a method to compare crosstalk on different TVs: AVForums
Unfortunately I did not make this test before updating to 3003/3005.1 but these are my results:
Left eye open/right closed - top -> 1
Left eye open/right closed - bottom -> 3
Right eye open/left closed - top -> 3
Right eye open/left closed - bottom -> 1

Edited by herbee, 16 December 2010 - 09:01 PM.


#65 Tiles

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Posted 16 December 2010 - 09:50 PM

http://img683.images.../p1010683k.jpg/
A few of the photos I took yesterday showing the ghosting obviously through each lense seperately.
As I said these photos look like hardly anything as the lense makes it hard to see it on the camera but just imagine the ghosting alot brighter and heaps more noticable and both left and right lenses at once! Gettin dizzy thinking about it lol

Edited by Tiles, 16 December 2010 - 10:02 PM.


#66 Berardo

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Posted 16 December 2010 - 11:25 PM

sent samsung an email about the crosstalk issue. their stupid support site does not list televisions in their support product list - also told them I was considering changing to panasonic - heh heh. Pointed them to this dtv thread so hopefully they will pay attention. I suggest everyone emails them and let them know how pissed off you are. Had friends over to see the 3d playback - very embarrassing as was great before. So let samsung know u r pissed off and flood them with emails.

#67 herbee

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Posted 17 December 2010 - 01:31 AM

@Tiles: That's pretty much the same extend of crosstalk that I experience on my TV since I have updated to that vicious 300x-firmware.
Whenever there are scenes with high contrast the problem becomes very striking (even more when playing games).

Edited by herbee, 17 December 2010 - 01:40 AM.


#68 marauderxp

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Posted 17 December 2010 - 10:02 AM

Hey, great input guys.

Hoping for an email today with an update on what's been happening and whether there's been any efforts being made at all so far.

Tiles, that crosstalk is identical to mine with anything I watch with similar background&foreground. From what I see, there's no variation of crosstalk between our sets, so I think it must be the firmware. Just too much evidence to support anything else?

With the firmware downgrade, from what I know, on the TV's drive partition, it stores the previous firmware as a version.1 file or something like that. If the TV senses that the current firmware has become corrupt, it will show the older one as 'alternative firmware'. It only handles the 2 and won't allow any further than the prior version that's stored there. If you do use the alternative ver though, I wonder what gets stored as the new 'alternative version'? lol. Pretty irrelevant anyway.

I'm just not sure how much time to give them. Not going to wait forever!

#69 Owen

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Posted 17 December 2010 - 10:42 AM

Maybe people will learn to be much more cautious about firmware updates and not update without knowing for a fact that said “update” address a problem they know they have AND that it does not create any new problems.

If in any doubt don’t, especially since you cant revert to the old firmware.

Best to let any update be tested by others for a few months to get some feedback.

#70 Tiles

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Posted 17 December 2010 - 11:01 AM

Hey, great input guys.

Hoping for an email today with an update on what's been happening and whether there's been any efforts being made at all so far.

Tiles, that crosstalk is identical to mine with anything I watch with similar background&foreground. From what I see, there's no variation of crosstalk between our sets, so I think it must be the firmware. Just too much evidence to support anything else?

With the firmware downgrade, from what I know, on the TV's drive partition, it stores the previous firmware as a version.1 file or something like that. If the TV senses that the current firmware has become corrupt, it will show the older one as 'alternative firmware'. It only handles the 2 and won't allow any further than the prior version that's stored there. If you do use the alternative ver though, I wonder what gets stored as the new 'alternative version'? lol. Pretty irrelevant anyway.

I'm just not sure how much time to give them. Not going to wait forever!

yea i think with herbs input we pretty much confirmed what we always thought that it is the firmware. I emailed that samsung resolutions guy explaining that i have asked my retailer for a replacement but i may hold off if there looks like being another firmware update shortly but he just replied that they are in discussions with head office but he's had no further information on the matter. Atleast he got back to me quickly. I think i will just push for the replacement but i dont expect DJ's to get me one only one week off christmas so i spose ill keep checking for new firmware. Keep posting any updates, atleast we've definately found the problem!

#71 marauderxp

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Posted 17 December 2010 - 11:34 AM

Maybe people will learn to be much more cautious about firmware updates and not update without knowing for a fact that said “update” address a problem they know they have AND that it does not create any new problems.

If in any doubt don’t, especially since you cant revert to the old firmware.


The trouble there, is that Samsung do not usually provide a changelog with new updates. The majority of their firmwares for these models have been (intended) for features and enhancements, ie enhancing playback, 3d (although we certainly don't call this one an enhancement), internet@TV and so on. Personally, I don't usually obtain the updates for issues to be fixed, but rather the enhancements and features.
Internet@TV has needed to be updated to support new and specific apps functionality.

The updates they're releasing are not like motherboard bios updates where it usually is to fix an issue. Even so, I always update my bios firmware and have never had any issues in all the years I've been doing so. But most companies that release firmware updates for their products test it thoroughly first. This is very poor from Samsung to release a supposed 'enhancement' for 3d, only for it to significantly amplify crosstalk, which obviously means they did very poor testing. They probably viewed a still 3d image or just a minimal amount of video. They should've had a few people to watch entire 3d films. Then they would've known that their new code revisions develop severe crosstalk in certain scenes.

While the 3d was never a problem before these updates, I always believed it could be and would be enhanced further through updates, especially the 2d>3d conversion, because I believe it uses 3dfier code and there's always new revisions coming out.

Samsung need to test more before releasing, although on this occasion, I wouldn't mind one asap if they firmly believe it'll fix the crosstalk.

#72 Tiles

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Posted 17 December 2010 - 12:28 PM

i do agree with you owen if i get replacement i will not be updating the firmware until i know they have fixed the problems they have created. BUT... marauderxp is spot on, samsung have said they have been working on this technology for 10 years, they could atleast test firmware upgrades, which will affect every person in the world with their product who downloads this upgrade, for more than the 10 minutes they must have before releasing it. Another thing, if you call samsung customer care with a problem, generally their first step to resolve the problem would be to ask you to update to the latest firmware as they told me to even after i explained thats what i think caused the problem. But yes i will be very wary updating in future

#73 jasoroony

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Posted 17 December 2010 - 12:54 PM

If you click the description link of the firmware, it opens up the change log... The Aus. site never has anything in it, but the UK site does. They got 3005.1 on the 15th, 9 days after us this time:

1. Title
2010 PDP C65** & 7*** Firmware for sefl-upgrade
2. Applicable Model
PS**C6000 7000 series
3. Description
T-VALDEUC-3005.1

. Power On error when CAM is inserted
(especially, Samsung CAM, T-REX CAM, Orecrypt CAM, Boxer CAM)
. Audio is cut off when playing recorded TV with specific stream in Poland
. Add ''Nordic'' region in PnP step with T2 Tuner
. Add Yahoo widget(Internet @TV)
. ''Digital text'' menu is not showed when selecting ''Estonia'' as country. (Estonia)
. Latch up sometimes when entering ''3D Optimisation'' with 3D ''on''
. [PDP TV] Judder with 3D ''smooth'' mode (24Hz => 60Hz)
. Recorded TV is stopped if TF1 widget is played on TF1 channel.
. When watching and turning off/on several times, network setting is failed.
(Mac address error)


And since they are adding new "widget" software - we do need to upgrade if we want it... With these devices it's no longer a matter of only flashing when there's "a problem" - so Samsung has to do better.

I also see more crosstalk :(

#74 marauderxp

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Posted 17 December 2010 - 01:04 PM

Yeah it's odd that some countries put the changelog in there, some don't. I believe Canada also does, but that will be the other region firmware which is a bit different.

If nothing comes Monday, I'll send an email off to Samsung Asia CEO.

#75 Owen

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Posted 18 December 2010 - 01:38 AM

Obviously Samsung's testing is less than best, all the more reason to wait until the issues with new firmware releases are well understood.

Fools rush in.