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Ps50c7000 Ps58c7000 Ps63c7000 3d Ghosting / Crosstalk Issues


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#1 Tiles

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Posted 02 December 2010 - 09:44 PM

Having problems with running 3d "MVA's". A heap of ghosting/crosstalk throughout entire movie. Obviously tried setting the 3d viewpoint on different levels but as you get the foreground calibrated perfect the background is wayout. Been back to Myer to watch on the exact same tv (PS58c7000) and never see a hint of ghosting/crosstalk. Studied all the same bits that they loop in the shops and at home it is awful.
I now have the latest firmware as of 29/11/10 I think it was released (3004) and it hasn't changed anything, maybe making the screen a little darker?..
Samsung have organised a service call but they are closed for a week or so, so I have some time still to muck around with it.
The OZ versions didn't get the 3d optimization like the US models did we?? (Not sure if thats just the same as our 3d viewpoint)
Would really like to hear if anyone has experienced this and if they have found a fix. Or if people are having no crosstalk/ghosting at all on these models?
I will try to get around to taking a picture thru one of the lenses and try to show the ghosting I'm talking about.
As I said in the store I watched for like 15 mins and did not see one bit of crosstalk/ghosting so hopefully there is a fix.
Really love these sets for 2d bluray watched the new "Predators" the other day and movie was alright, picture was UNREAL!!

#2 andys

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Posted 04 December 2010 - 11:43 AM

What sort of HDMI cable are you using? At a minimum it needs to be a highspeed cable. There is some minor ghosting present in MvA, but it should be quite minimal. Do you have any other 3D content to test? Any of the Sony BD-3D's are good to test as they are pretty much ghost-free. Try Cloudy With A Chance Of Meatballs or Monster House. There should be no ghosting present on those titles.

Andys.

#3 Tiles

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Posted 04 December 2010 - 02:18 PM

What sort of HDMI cable are you using? At a minimum it needs to be a highspeed cable. There is some minor ghosting present in MvA, but it should be quite minimal. Do you have any other 3D content to test? Any of the Sony BD-3D's are good to test as they are pretty much ghost-free. Try Cloudy With A Chance Of Meatballs or Monster House. There should be no ghosting present on those titles.

Andys.

Running a 1.4 hdmi cable directly to the tv with pretty good specs compared to others I have seen. Even running the tom cruise "Knight and Day" bluray in 2d to 3d convert shows ghosting around figures and watching FTA it's also present sometimes which I never really noticed before the 3003 firmware update (now updated to the latest 3004 Firmware).
Thanks for the sony BD-3D suggestion's as I've read most people say they have next to none on these titles so will try and pick which movie I would actually prefer to watch and get around to purchasing it, any suggestions as to which is a decent watch for an adult with no kids? haha

#4 MLXXX

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Posted 04 December 2010 - 02:18 PM

There is some minor ghosting present in MvA, but it should be quite minimal.

Andys, what do you mean by 'present'? A fault in the 3D animation, or a slight deficiency in the Samsung display when displaying 3D?

#5 jasoroony

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Posted 04 December 2010 - 02:23 PM

Andys, what do you mean by 'present'? A fault in the 3D animation, or a slight deficiency in the Samsung display when displaying 3D?


Well, he said it's only MvA but not the other Sony titles - so it's not the TV.

#6 MLXXX

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Posted 04 December 2010 - 02:30 PM

Well, he said it's only MvA but not the other Sony titles - so it's not the TV.

It could be that MvA includes some very high contrast material which makes ghosting just visible. It seems a bit odd to me that there should be a fault in the computerised animation. Animation creates a left view and a right view. It should not ghost one view onto the other view.

#7 andys

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Posted 04 December 2010 - 02:33 PM

Andys, what do you mean by 'present'? A fault in the 3D animation, or a slight deficiency in the Samsung display when displaying 3D?

It's in the transfer. It's been noted in quite a few reviews. It is pretty minimal though. The Sony transfers are ghost free - Cloudy With A Chance Of Meatballs / Monster House look great.

Andys.

#8 jasoroony

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Posted 04 December 2010 - 02:34 PM

It could be that MvA includes some very high contrast material which makes ghosting just visible. It seems a bit odd to me that there should be a fault in the computerised animation. Animation creates a left view and a right view. It should not ghost one view onto the other view.


Hmmm, I don't think any of us are "experts" enough to comment on your question though. These are just observations.
Edit: at least that's the way I take it.

Edited by jasoroony, 04 December 2010 - 02:35 PM.


#9 andys

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Posted 04 December 2010 - 02:48 PM

Maybe someone with a Panasonic 3D-TV could comment on MvA. Minimal ghosting on MvA on the Samsung, but nothing evident on the Sony BD-3D's on the Samsung.

I don't think there's any 3D experts here. We can only comment on what we see.

Andys.

#10 MLXXX

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Posted 04 December 2010 - 03:13 PM

@jasoroony and @andys
Fair enough.

If a spot where ghosting is in evidence, so many minutes into the animation can be identified, then it is possible to rip the 3D Blu-ray disc, though it might not be legal to do so, using software (DVDFab), and get a side by side version and examine relevant frames in that part of the video for a fault in the animation frames. Another way would be to view that portion of MvA on another set such, as a Panasonic VT20, to see whether ghosting appears. [As I see andys has just mentioned.]

I think a lot of people may assume that shutter glasses 3D is straightforward technology for delivering ghost-free 3D. It isn't. It is a balancing act between:

  • maximising brightness (using a high duty cycle, i.e. keeping shutters open as long as possible, the maximum being 50% for each eye)
  • minimising ghosting (using a low duty cycle, i.e. allowing the sceen phospors plenty of time to go dim for one eye before turning the shutter glasses on for the other eye)
  • minimising flicker (using multiple alternating strobes for each eye for a single frame [at this point in time it may be just 2 strobes, for 96Hz 3D in a LRLR pattern] rather than a single flash for the left eye followed by a single flash for the right eye, i.e. a flickery LR pattern)

Faced with these conflicting constraints, it would not be at all surprising to me that a little bit of ghosting is occasionally visible on most models of 3D TV.

#11 jasoroony

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Posted 04 December 2010 - 03:38 PM

And I think, quality of the peril sensitive sunglasses.

#12 andys

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Posted 04 December 2010 - 03:55 PM

And I think, quality of the peril sensitive sunglasses.

A little slice of black electrical tape over most of the sensor on the glasses does wonders! I've never had any flicker when going from dark scenes to bright scenes ever since. It really works a treat!

Andys.

#13 Tiles

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Posted 04 December 2010 - 05:05 PM

@jasoroony and @andys
Fair enough.

If a spot where ghosting is in evidence, so many minutes into the animation can be identified, then it is possible to rip the 3D Blu-ray disc, though it might not be legal to do so, using software (DVDFab), and get a side by side version and examine relevant frames in that part of the video for a fault in the animation frames. Another way would be to view that portion of MvA on another set such, as a Panasonic VT20, to see whether ghosting appears. [As I see andys has just mentioned.]

I think a lot of people may assume that shutter glasses 3D is straightforward technology for delivering ghost-free 3D. It isn't. It is a balancing act between:

  • maximising brightness (using a high duty cycle, i.e. keeping shutters open as long as possible, the maximum being 50% for each eye)
  • minimising ghosting (using a low duty cycle, i.e. allowing the sceen phospors plenty of time to go dim for one eye before turning the shutter glasses on for the other eye)
  • minimising flicker (using multiple alternating strobes for each eye for a single frame [at this point in time it may be just 2 strobes, for 96Hz 3D in a LRLR pattern] rather than a single flash for the left eye followed by a single flash for the right eye, i.e. a flickery LR pattern)

Faced with these conflicting constraints, it would not be at all surprising to me that a little bit of ghosting is occasionally visible on most models of 3D TV.

This is a pretty good perspective at looking how this type of 3d works, it really is a balancing act as we have all probably noticed even when playing with all the different settings trying to get it perfect but then just revert back to the 3d factory standard settings lol.
Question for Andys (or anyone else feel free), do you have the 3d optimisation setting under the 3d option, or just the 3d viewpoint? Just trying to work out if this is just a US setting or wheather the OZ models should also have this setting as mine only has viewpoint. People in the US have stated it works to optimise the 3d sync between tv and glasses...

#14 andys

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Posted 04 December 2010 - 05:27 PM

Question for Andys (or anyone else feel free), do you have the 3d optimisation setting under the 3d option, or just the 3d viewpoint? Just trying to work out if this is just a US setting or wheather the OZ models should also have this setting as mine only has viewpoint. People in the US have stated it works to optimise the 3d sync between tv and glasses...

At work atm, but I'm pretty sure it's just 3D Viewpoint. As I said earlier, I've had no sync issues since using the black tape. I would imagine viewing distance & the amount of ambient light could play a part. I'm a tad under 2 metres away in a fairly dark room. Bright bursts of light in my environment have caused sync issues in the past, but not since using the tape. I've wasted numerous hours playing withe the 3D settings just to find a small piece of black tape fixed it completely. It's a beautiful experince when you don't lose sync!

Andys.

#15 Tiles

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Posted 04 December 2010 - 07:41 PM

At work atm, but I'm pretty sure it's just 3D Viewpoint. As I said earlier, I've had no sync issues since using the black tape. I would imagine viewing distance & the amount of ambient light could play a part. I'm a tad under 2 metres away in a fairly dark room. Bright bursts of light in my environment have caused sync issues in the past, but not since using the tape. I've wasted numerous hours playing withe the 3D settings just to find a small piece of black tape fixed it completely. It's a beautiful experince when you don't lose sync!

No worries just when you get time would you be able to post your 3d settings (if changed from the standard at all) and also I tried the tape over the glasses receiver leaving just a little showing at one end of the receiver but it unfortunately didn't help in my case but was wondering if you had any tips on how you used the tape (ie over the end, or top or bottom half of glasses receiver?). Also when you said the tape fixed your sync issues, what issues were you having? Just the glasses turning off briefly or were you experiencing more crosstalk then the minimal you see after using the tape?
Played with the picture settings and got the picture so the crosstalk was quite watchable and only quite distracting when displaying objects on a dark background etc, but then I realised it had lessened the 3d effect considerably to the point I thought I may aswell take off the glasses and watch 2d lol.
Thanks heaps for your help

#16 andys

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Posted 05 December 2010 - 09:37 AM

No worries just when you get time would you be able to post your 3d settings (if changed from the standard at all) and also I tried the tape over the glasses receiver leaving just a little showing at one end of the receiver but it unfortunately didn't help in my case but was wondering if you had any tips on how you used the tape (ie over the end, or top or bottom half of glasses receiver?). Also when you said the tape fixed your sync issues, what issues were you having? Just the glasses turning off briefly or were you experiencing more crosstalk then the minimal you see after using the tape?
Played with the picture settings and got the picture so the crosstalk was quite watchable and only quite distracting when displaying objects on a dark background etc, but then I realised it had lessened the 3d effect considerably to the point I thought I may aswell take off the glasses and watch 2d lol.
Thanks heaps for your help


3D Settings: Default Standard, adjusting Colour to 44, & Colour Space to Auto.

Tape: I placed it so there was just a little bit of the sensor showing at the top of the glasses. It can take a couple of goes to find the sweet spot.

Sync Issues: An occasional flick on the glasses when going from a dark scene/or black back to a bright scene. The tape stopped that. It's possible viewing distance may play a part. I'm under 2 metres & in a reasonably dark environment.

Hope that helps.

Tiles - Out of interest what BD-3D Player do you have? I found the PS3 well below par for BD-3D movies in comparison to the Sammy 3D player.


Andys.

Edited by andys, 05 December 2010 - 05:17 PM.


#17 andys

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Posted 05 December 2010 - 09:44 AM

Double post.

Edited by andys, 05 December 2010 - 09:45 AM.


#18 Tiles

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Posted 05 December 2010 - 10:02 PM

I'm using the sammy 5900 bluray player which is why I can't understand I'm pretty sure the store is running the same player to the same 58" plasma yet with absolutely no crosstalk. Not sure if there is a difference in levels of ghosting between the MVA's demo disk in store which just loops certain parts or the feature length disk we received as part of the samsung 3d starter kit, but with my 3d settings set to the default config it is so irritating it renders the movie unwatchable for me (between the distraction of it and the eye strain).
On a better note, wanted to say thanks to Andys watched the entire MVA's movie lastnite with settings which reduced 3d effect but also reduced crosstalk to a tolerable level and with the tape partially over the receiver of the glasses I did not lose snc with the tv once which obviously helped in keeping with the immersion so kudos to Andys!!
Tried to purchase another 3d bluray movie today for comparisons of crosstalk but had no luck with Myer, JB, Big W, Target and Kmart so will purchase one online shortly.
Anyone else have similar problems or no problems at all?? Your feedback would be greatly appreciated :)

#19 andys

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Posted 06 December 2010 - 06:55 AM

On a better note, wanted to say thanks to Andys watched the entire MVA's movie lastnite with settings which reduced 3d effect but also reduced crosstalk to a tolerable level and with the tape partially over the receiver of the glasses I did not lose snc with the tv once which obviously helped in keeping with the immersion so kudos to Andys!!
Tried to purchase another 3d bluray movie today for comparisons of crosstalk but had no luck with Myer, JB, Big W, Target and Kmart so will purchase one online shortly.

Cheers Tiles. Glad it improved things for you. Maybe give JB a try for some BD-3D titles. Currently available; Open Season, Cloudy With A Chance Of Meatballs, & Monster House. From the UK - Alice In Wonderland & Bolt. From the US - Polar Express & Clash Of The Titans (both region free). There's a few Imax BD's as well from both the UK & US.

Enjoy!

Andys.

#20 duster

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Posted 06 December 2010 - 03:18 PM

Just to let you know I'm having minor mirage like effect around some scenes mainly M v A (pana 65vt) but also Avatar, like you I have played with the settings which also reduced the 3D effect. I'm starting to think it could be the HDMI (monster home series) going to borrow a friends lead and see if it makes any difference. Will be a few days though. If it does the fix was thinking of ordering some from this site.

#21 andys

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Posted 06 December 2010 - 06:35 PM

Just to let you know I'm having minor mirage like effect around some scenes mainly M v A (pana 65vt) but also Avatar, like you I have played with the settings which also reduced the 3D effect. I'm starting to think it could be the HDMI (monster home series) going to borrow a friends lead and see if it makes any difference. Will be a few days though. If it does the fix was thinking of ordering some from this site.

That'll be ghosting. As I suspected (& have seen mentioned in a few reviews) the minor ghosting in MvA is in the transfer itself. Just check that your Monster cable is a highspeed cable. If it is, then I doubt another cable will make any difference.

What BD-3D player are you using?

Andys.

#22 MLXXX

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Posted 06 December 2010 - 10:21 PM

As I suspected (& have seen mentioned in a few reviews) the minor ghosting in MvA is in the transfer itself.

I have found this in a review (from http://bluray.highde...rsaliens3d.html ):-

Hick-ups such as ghosting and background blur are probably to be expected with new HD 3D, but I see no reason why as the technology matures, studios can't learn to correct these problems.

That strikes me as a somewhat patronising wording for a reviewer to adopt, and there is no attempt by the reviewer to explain at a technical level how the Blu-ray "contains" ghosting. I note the reviewer used a Samsung 3D display.

I have four questions:

1. Is there another review that offers a technical explanation as to how and why MvA apparently contains ghosting defects in the transfer itself?
2. Has anyone actually seen an extracted (ripped) still frame from MvA showing a blemished Left image and/or a blemished Right image? (Perhaps in a thread on an overseas forum.)
3. If anyone has tried playing a troublesome part of the 3D MvA Blu-ray with the player set to 2D mode, was ghosting to be seen? (I think that 2D mode plays the Left image only. If it has been blemished by ghosting the ghosting would presumably appear in 2D mode.)
4. Is the ghosting of the same intensity on a non-Samsung 3D display?


Edited by MLXXX, 07 December 2010 - 08:35 AM.


#23 Tiles

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Posted 07 December 2010 - 08:53 AM

I have found this in a review (from http://bluray.highde...rsaliens3d.html ):-

Hick-ups such as ghosting and background blur are probably to be expected with new HD 3D, but I see no reason why as the technology matures, studios can't learn to correct these problems.

That strikes me as a somewhat patronising wording for a reviewer to adopt, and there is no attempt by the reviewer to explain at a technical level how the Blu-ray "contains" ghosting. I note the reviewer used a Samsung 3D display.

I have four questions:

1. Is there another review that offers a technical explanation as to how and why MvA apparently contains ghosting defects in the transfer itself?
2. Has anyone actually seen an extracted (ripped) still frame from MvA showing a blemished Left image and/or a blemished Right image? (Perhaps in a thread on an overseas forum.)
3. If anyone has tried playing a troublesome part of the 3D MvA Blu-ray with the player set to 2D mode, was ghosting to be seen? (I think that 2D mode plays the Left image only. If it has been blemished by ghosting the ghosting would presumably appear in 2D mode.)
4. Is the ghosting of the same intensity on a non-Samsung 3D display?

All good questions will try 2d mode and also try and take a picture of my crosstalk through the glasses and see if it is more or about the same as what others are experiencing. Also does anyone have any ideas as to why there is no crosstalk on the mva instore demo on the exact same setup as mine but then heaps when i watch at home? Cant work out if the store demo which just loops the impressive scenes in the movie has been transferred differently to the full feature we received with samsung starter kit. Any ideas??

#24 marauderxp

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Posted 07 December 2010 - 12:25 PM

Tiles, I was hoping you could please contact the store and ask them to check what firmware version (will show under software upgrade) they are using? I'm guessing they may be on the older firmware.

I had my ps58c7000 replaced 3 weeks ago for something unrelated to 3d, and with this one I am noticing an incredible amount of crosstalk, something I never had on the old one. There were a couple of firmware updates made available around the time I had my tv replaced but I didn't update at the time. I updated this new one to the latest before I viewed any 3d content.

I've contacted Samsung (and their head tech) to investigate this further. I think maybe Samsung have messed up in one of their recent firmwares (3002 or 3003), as that is also when they fixed up the '3d picture correction' option.

This is all I can think of, as it's nothing to do with the panel, I can't see the board being at fault.

But it would be interesting to know what firmware that TV you saw in the store is on.

#25 marauderxp

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Posted 07 December 2010 - 12:42 PM

of course I should ask what ver fw you are on too lol?