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All People In Australia Will Get 16 Or More Tv Channels


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#1 alanh

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Posted 09 November 2010 - 07:59 PM

All,
Minister for BCDE's media release

Particularly it means that;
GWN and WIN will be subsidised to install the extra pair of transmitters on each site to provide all programs from GWN, WIN and TenWest
In Spencer Gulf, Roxby Downs, Ceduna it means that the extra pair of transmitters will transmit all extra programs
In Riverland/SE SA it means that WIN SA will transmit all extra programs
In the MIA WIN NSW will transmit all extra programs
In Mt Isa and other inland towns Southern Cross Broadcasters & Imparja will radiate all extra programs
In Alice Springs, Tennant Creek and Katherine Southern Cross & Imparja will install the extra transmitters required.

AlanH

#2 viewer

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Posted 09 November 2010 - 08:45 PM

Ok, I've read the press release to myself about 3 times.

I cannot see anything in it that now says I can't have VAST now.

He says "In combination with the newly established Viewer Access Satellite Television (VAST) service for viewers in remote licence areas and reception blackspots, this measure will provide every Australian with the ability to access the full range of commercial free-to-air digital television services including digital-only channels Go!, GEM, 7Two, 7Mate, ONE, and the soon-to-be-launched Eleven.

So...can I still not get it in the Coffs Harbour area?

#3 alanh

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Posted 09 November 2010 - 09:03 PM

Viewer,
The answer to your question is not in that media release but another one.
Since you are in a regional area you will have to wait until 6 months prior to the analog switch off in the North Coast NSW.
So authorisations will start 1st July 2012. The analog switchoff of the Mt Moombil analog transmitters at the end of that year.

AlanH

#4 DrP

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Posted 09 November 2010 - 09:23 PM

Government media releases?! I'm surprised to see such nonsense being posted here because as well all know, government media releases simply don't cut it. :winky:

#5 viewer

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Posted 10 November 2010 - 05:27 PM

Viewer,
The answer to your question is not in that media release but another one.
Since you are in a regional area you will have to wait until 6 months prior to the analog switch off in the North Coast NSW.
So authorizations will start 1st July 2012. The analog switchoff of the Mt Moombil analog transmitters at the end of that year.

AlanH


Thanks...I know what the former press releases said, but my opinion is, that this is a new one, and thus the information contained within, refreshes or updates previous announcements. That's why I read it and spelled out my interpretation that it should be available now. What you are eluding to means we should always ignore new media releases, and concentrate on the old one's, as new press releases are worthless.

Again...more misinformation and lack of a professional approach by Mr Conjob.

#6 digitalj

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Posted 10 November 2010 - 09:43 PM

Viewer,

Have you been to your local federal member and requested that they ask in parliament "Why is it that people who are already on Aurora not permitted to get VAST even though the signals that cover you are already active"?

#7 alanh

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Posted 11 November 2010 - 01:21 AM

Viewer,
I told you some time ago that you will not get VAST authorisation until 6 months prior to the analog switch off in the North Coast of NSW. This has been Government policy from the start of VAST. This is probably because the broadcasters in regional areas want you to try their digital signal first prior to prove you cannot get their signal. You will just have to wait until July 2012. If these rules are applied in SW WA they will have to wait a year more than you.

The ACMA is progressively surveying digital signal strengths. So their could be some areas which currently do not have one which mayhave the broadcasters install them. They do not want these viewers to go to VAST.

AlanH

#8 viewer

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Posted 11 November 2010 - 02:16 PM

Viewer,
I told you some time ago that you will not get VAST authorisation until 6 months prior to the analog switch off in the North Coast of NSW. This has been Government policy from the start of VAST. This is probably because the broadcasters in regional areas want you to try their digital signal first prior to prove you cannot get their signal. You will just have to wait until July 2012. If these rules are applied in SW WA they will have to wait a year more than you.

The ACMA is progressively surveying digital signal strengths. So their could be some areas which currently do not have one which mayhave the broadcasters install them. They do not want these viewers to go to VAST.

AlanH


AlanH,
I told you some time ago that I have the use of the digital transmissions via Mt. Moombil.
I have told you some time ago that the tower transmits both analogue and digital
I have told you some time ago that the full digital suite of channels is running off of Mt. Moombil
I have told you some time ago that analogue is ghosted out due to mountainous terrain, and no installer can fix it
I have told you some time ago that digital transmissions pixelate and fall over, even after the installation of the correct antenna by an authorised antenna technician.
I have told you some time ago that I am approved as an Aurora subscriber, with 2 UEC decoders and Irdeto 1.2 subscriber cards.
I have told you some time ago that BroadcastAustralia have no plans to upgrade Mt Moombil or any surrounding transmission sites.

But yes, I will try the broadcaster's signal in my regional area for another two years, even though they tell me they have no plans to do anything else in this location.

Yes, I will enjoy the next 2 years of in/out digital reception, knowing nothing will get better, but understand that this is what is classed as acceptable, when the VAST service could be provided now.

Anyhow, good to see you understand my issues, and that you have told me everything I needed to know.

#9 viewer

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Posted 11 November 2010 - 02:24 PM

Viewer,

Have you been to your local federal member and requested that they ask in parliament "Why is it that people who are already on Aurora not permitted to get VAST even though the signals that cover you are already active"?


Yes mate,
:rolleyes:
I have sent emails to:

To my National Party Federal Member....Cowper electorate
To my National party State Member...Coffs Harbour Electorate
7 emails to the Minister...6 via the Ministers main Departmental "contact me" address, and 1 to his web site
2 emails to the PM...1 explaining my problem with Conjob, the auto email response saying they would write a response to me..and 1 x email saying 3 months later, no reply from her either.

Any other you could suggest...lol....

The first 2 have been helpful, sending me copies of letters they have sent to the Minister representing my situation, as well as fellow constituents in their electorates...they got no reply from the Minister either.


The last 2 have not answered either.

It sure is refreshing to have a Communications Minister whom can't show the courtesy of even communicating a reply.

#10 alanh

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Posted 11 November 2010 - 03:28 PM

Viewer,
What you have not told me is how many people in your valley have Aurora reception instead of off air reception from Mt Moombil.
What you have not told me is how many people in your valley have complained to your local Federal Member.
What you have not told me is what type of installation was tried at your place
What you have not told me is what type of antennas your neighbours are using

All politicians like broadcasters work on the number of people who complain at a similar time.

AlanH

#11 viewer

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Posted 11 November 2010 - 04:14 PM

Viewer,
What you have not told me is how many people in your valley have Aurora reception instead of off air reception from Mt Moombil.
What you have not told me is how many people in your valley have complained to your local Federal Member.
What you have not told me is what type of installation was tried at your place
What you have not told me is what type of antennas your neighbours are using

All politicians like broadcasters work on the number of people who complain at a similar time.

AlanH

The last polling booth listings say there was 671 voters in my locality...so, averaging 2 votes per household, I'd say 325 in my area
I know 6 in my area, and a greater number in Moonee Beach and Coramba areas who's local plight has been recorded in the local newspapers, with local member support
Original antenna was an old vhf and another uhf antenna. I got it replaced with a phased array antenna, prior digital transmissions, as that was supposed to help avoid multiple ghosting on analogue, but it didn't cut it. I then had a Woolgoolga based antenna technician recommend a band 4+ antenna, horizontally polarised, ready for digital,and had it installed. I think it was a Hills TMX20. He used a meter, checking the whole roof space, as well as in and around the property, but again located it at the best compromise point, on the roof. He also changed my amplifier and splitter, as well as the cable run into the house, checking the individual points. He told me this was the best he could get, and that the signal would drop out at times, but that was all he could do. He did say I could try multiple yagi's for each channel, but the price was not realistic. He observed my arsenal of Cband and Ku band satellite dishes and receivers, and checked my Aurora signal levels, saying I had done a good job hooking all that up myself. He also commented that although I had Aurora, the picture would be highly inferior to what fta digital was....compression, and not 16 x 9
I have since swapped to a different amplifier, and tried to also use attenuators to assist, helped by another friend (antenna installer) on another forum.

My neighbours use a selection of either a phased array, or normal antennas.

#12 alanh

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Posted 11 November 2010 - 05:29 PM

Viewer,
If only 6 houses require a signal then it is not worthwhile to install 5 translators.

The only appropriate antenna for you for Mt Moombil, is the Fracarro PU16F phased array antenna, which is available in Coffs Harbour. This antenna should be atleast 10 m above the ground.
The most appropriate amplifier is Kingray's new MHU42FS

All of your digital signals are UHF.

AlanH

#13 viewer

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Posted 11 November 2010 - 06:06 PM

Viewer,
If only 6 houses require a signal then it is not worthwhile to install 5 translators.

The only appropriate antenna for you for Mt Moombil, is the Fracarro PU16F phased array antenna, which is available in Coffs Harbour. This antenna should be atleast 10 m above the ground.
The most appropriate amplifier is Kingray's new MHU42FS

All of your digital signals are UHF.

AlanH


The amplifier in use now is ACAD AM 366, it replaced the Kingray one on it. I have tried the phased array, and the present antenna is better...and yes, I bet you have guessed it....all antenna gear sourced from Lacey's by the installer, as well as attempted changes myself with Lacey gear.

I have also tried not using the amplifier, as the signal is already strong. If I point the phased array at a mountain to my east, I can pick up the reflected digial signal, however, again, it will not hold signal under adverse conditions. My installer tried these things for me too.

Let's face it, I am best for VAST, but locked out through beaurocracy....they need to adopt some flexibility for those that have genuinely tried all other alternatives, and are in no way milking the system. I'll simply just have to forget it, and suck it up.

#14 alanh

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Posted 11 November 2010 - 06:46 PM

Viewer,
If you are trying to get signals from reflections you need to change the antenna polarisation. So in your case you need to point the antenna away from Mt Moombil and rotate the antenna in the vertical axis by 90 degrees and retry.

AlanH

#15 viewer

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Posted 11 November 2010 - 06:50 PM

Thanks Al...mate, tried the lot, upside down, back to front, sideways, angles you name it....the only way it seems to get some use is when the misses says to stick it up my arxx, and I figure that's the time to stop trying again.

Some people have no worries, the minority have big issues...I'm just in the wrong group.

#16 bellotv

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Posted 11 November 2010 - 07:24 PM

Viewer,
If only 6 houses require a signal then it is not worthwhile to install 5 translators.

The only appropriate antenna for you for Mt Moombil, is the Fracarro PU16F phased array antenna, which is available in Coffs Harbour. This antenna should be atleast 10 m above the ground.
The most appropriate amplifier is Kingray's new MHU42FS

All of your digital signals are UHF.

AlanH


Once again you are talking hypothetically.

The PU16F is a damn impressive looking antenna but it is not a magic pill ,and at around $300+ retail it isn't cheap .

Occasionally the PU16 is a better option but I would say only in very rear occasions .(I carry one around in my van and use it to test along with yagis and single phased array panels.I have only found one case in the last few years where I could say it made a genuine difference)

Regarding 10m.
Again you are quoting theory .You can't say "stick up a mast 10 meters above ground and it will help"
What bollocks.

It all depends on where the signal is .It doesn't mater if your at 2 meters ,5 meters .10 meters or a 100 meters ,If theres no signal there THEN THERE'S NO SIGNAL THERE.
I've lost count of how many masts have been randomly installed to such heights straight into a no signal zone.Move several meters either way and bingo.
Its NOT HEIGHT ,ITS PLACEMENT ( did you have any influence on Aurora applications where it comes to testing at this height ?)


OK then there's the use of a MHU42FS
42dB gain !!!!.

What in the hell is that supposed to do to a signal that is so weak and full of multipath that a 24dB gain amp won't fix .How much lose are you expecting in the down lead from your 10 meter ( thats above ground not the roof ) feeder ?
Even with a splitter supplying a few outlets, you don't need this amount of gain.
Perhaps if the antenna was mounted 100 meters away in the middle if a paddock it may be warrented.



AlanH this Christmas ,buy yourself a digital meter ,an extend-able mast, a variety of antennas even a few masthead amps and come on down to the country and do some real tests .You may be so surprised with what you find that you shut up all this generalized crap

Give viewer a brake .The guy he gets from Wollgoolga knows his stuff. If he can't get it to work ,it isn't going to work .
Yes AlanH these places do exist.

Only today I was out one of my local valleys.Surprise surprise, even the PU16 wouldn't work ,there was less only 60dBuV even WITH A MHU34F ,Meter could barely lock let alone give a readable Channel BER reading.
A few Km's up the road and there was 50dBuV straight off the antenna and Channel BER <2E-05 on all channels

#17 viewer

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Posted 11 November 2010 - 07:38 PM

Thanks bellotv....I don't feel as bad now...youv'e made me feel "wanted", rather than being tossed aside.

I think a real hurdle on when you guys come and try help us, is that one day digital can be great, even for days on end, then all of a sudden, off it goes. sometimes just a ripple of the breeze up in the hills, a bit of lightning, mowers, microwave ovens, fluro lamps..all come into the equation.

You could do your pro thing today, then have us ringing you back saying "hang on...it's playing up".....you must get pretty frustrated with that sort of thing, and I imagine the call backs would be expected at no cost...pretty hard for you to absorb?

I would have thought these testing scenarios for VAST could be much simpler...sort out from first hand observation, discussion with customer and what happens, sheer local knowledge, and simply state on a stat dec or whatever that it is a valid case or not. Running around doing measurements, submitting forms etc is all going to be at a cost to the customer, when sometimes this is just overkill. Gosh, if someone wants VAST, and lives in a terrestrial area, then 9 times out of 10, they'd have to be pretty genuine, as they could simply just go for fta and save megabucks, no "licence" no encryption, self installation?

God I'm raving again....

Thanks bellotv for some sanity....I appreciated your words.

#18 M'bozo

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Posted 11 November 2010 - 07:59 PM

If you are trying to get signals from reflections you need to change the antenna polarisation.


Since when?

#19 alanh

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Posted 11 November 2010 - 08:34 PM

M'bozo,
I have tried this and it works as it should, because this is also what also occurs with light. That's why polaroid sunglasses work outside.

Try it out pointing at the side of a large building.

AlanH

#20 alanh

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Posted 11 November 2010 - 09:01 PM

belloTV,

Notice I did not say 10 m. I said this because of the need for this for the reception to be poor enough for blackspot qualifications.

You criticise the 42 dB amplifiers. There must be a market for these as they are a brand new model from Kingray. They have been producing MHU44B5G, MHV44HLG, MHU44G for many years.

I have never said that Masthead amplifiers will have any effect on reflected signals. They will be amplified along with the main signal. That's why the principle of getting the best signal at the antenna has the highest priority. My main point about amplifiers is to ensure they only amplify the frequency range of the wanted signals. This is what happens in all other areas of communications technology including TV receivers.

If you do path planning to the northern side of the Orana Valley there is plenty of signal, its only the southern side which has a problem with blocked paths.

AlanH

#21 beeblebrox

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Posted 11 November 2010 - 10:18 PM

Viewer,
If only 6 houses require a signal then it is not worthwhile to install 5 translators.

The only appropriate antenna for you for Mt Moombil, is the Fracarro PU16F phased array antenna, which is available in Coffs Harbour. This antenna should be atleast 10 m above the ground.
The most appropriate amplifier is Kingray's new MHU42FS

All of your digital signals are UHF.

AlanH

And you recommend this because?????


a. you have indepth field knowledge of this componentry.
b. someone you know is using it in a similar situation.
c. you read a spec sheet and it should do the job.


oh and btw it may get more interference because it does ch21-69 (in alanh's opinion on previous posts) but alanh has conveniently forgotten about that.

#22 alanh

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Posted 11 November 2010 - 11:41 PM

Beeblebrox,
All UHF phased arrays are designed to be broadbanded. They are made broadband for the European market where there is a large range of RF channels in small geographic areas. The European UHF band is 470 - 860 MHz but in some countries it extends to 902 MHz.

The Australian antenna manufacturers claim channel ranges but do not show a frequency response graph which extends past 519 - 820 MHz so you do not know how tuned their antennas really are.

So I have not forgot about channels 21 - 26 or above channel 69 because there are no commercially made antennas which exactly fit the Australian UHF bands.

Atleast all the UHF Kingray masthead amplfiers will remove channels 21 - 26 prior to amplification.

AlanH

#23 DrP

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Posted 12 November 2010 - 05:27 AM

Notice I did not say 10 m.

Actually, what you said was

This antenna should be atleast 10 m above the ground.


As anyone with real experience knows, arbitrary positioning of an antenna is hardly the best way to achieve reception. Depending on local conditions good reception may well be achieved at 8 metres. In fact there are untold number of installations on low set or slab houses that have the antenna at less than 10 metres and they all somehow manage to achieve good reception.

Only someone on site, with an appropriate meter, will be able to determine where the best position for the antenna is.

#24 M'bozo

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Posted 12 November 2010 - 06:31 AM

Anyone who has done an ABA 58 application, that has also read the FAQ's, would come across this:


Q5. Why should I measure the field strength at an antenna height of 10 metres when few people
have antennas of this height?

An internationally agreed height of 10 metres is used for measuring field strengths. Measurements at this
height are statistically repeatable. The majority of viewers get adequate pictures with lower antenna heights,
however, some viewers may require an antenna at a height of 10 metres to obtain adequate reception.


Since the agent performing the measurements is required to sign a stat dec that this has been done, regardless of the perceived difficulty, or the practical limitations that may apply, it is a requirement.

I'm hoping there will be a different way of assessing VAST applications when the time comes.

I'm not living in hope, though. :(

#25 M'bozo

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Posted 12 November 2010 - 06:41 AM

I have tried this and it works as it should, because this is also what also occurs with light. That's why polaroid sunglasses work outside.

Try it out pointing at the side of a large building.


Generally speaking, unless specifically generated in a particular polarisation, light is not polarised until it is absorbed by, or reflected from, a medium.

The television signals I deal with are transmitted in one of 2 (E-plane) polarisations.

The reflected signals I use for reception have the same plane of polarisation as transmitted.