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Darwin Is Too Small For Nine, Win Will Be Better For Darwin


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#26 willwalk

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Posted 12 August 2009 - 09:57 PM

In general it was an upconvert, but on some shows they showed a proper HD show, and it was obvious that it was the real deal (especially compared with the SD channel).

From memory, the shows I've seen being broadcast in actual HD are Today Show, A Current Affair and CSI... though that was a while ago, I don't pay much attention these days.

Good to see that we should be getting GO! sometime, though it'd be nice if there was a more accurate date!


Hmm I wonder if the picture quality is a lot more smoother and nicer in the native HD program rather than a upconvert?

William Walker

#27 aeon

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Posted 13 August 2009 - 01:24 PM

Hmm I wonder if the picture quality is a lot more smoother and nicer in the native HD program rather than a upconvert?

William Walker


Yes it's definitely noticeable - upconverted SD programs on the HD channel seem to have problems such as bad shuddering, but proper HD programs on the HD channel are smooth as silk - bitrate can be a bit low at times (causing some compression artefacts), but in general, it looks very nice, and noticeably better than the SD channel (and any SD upconvert).

#28 Smacca

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Posted 15 August 2009 - 03:43 AM

Hmm I wonder if the picture quality is a lot more smoother and nicer in the native HD program rather than a upconvert?

Native HD programming is filmed, edited and distibuted in HD. SD programming is filmed, edited and distributed in SD. You tell me which one would look best on an HD channel. :P

#29 alanh

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Posted 15 August 2009 - 12:23 PM

SMacca.
If the display is Full HD it will be shown at the best quality as you would expect. If something is shot in SD then either the station will upconvert it and broadcast it on its HD channel or the viewer selects the SD channel and the receiver has to upcovert it otherwise the SD image is considerably smaller and surrounded by black.

As for showing the HD on an SD display or an SD shoot on an SD display there is not a lot in it.

Lastly the ABC is still using a lot of PAL cameras in news, you can still see the crosscolour effects which do not exist in any fully digital shoot.

AlanH

#30 rtop75

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Posted 15 August 2009 - 05:57 PM

In general it was an upconvert, but on some shows they showed a proper HD show, and it was obvious that it was the real deal (especially compared with the SD channel).

From memory, the shows I've seen being broadcast in actual HD are Today Show, A Current Affair and CSI... though that was a while ago, I don't pay much attention these days.

Good to see that we should be getting GO! sometime, though it'd be nice if there was a more accurate date!


You know you are watching proper HD programming on ch 90 (9HD) by the little orange box that shows up in the bottom left hand corner of the screen just after the ads have been on. I have seen it regularly appear while watching the later seasons of Two and a Half Men but have not seen them on the first 2-3 seasons, with a noticable difference to the clarity and sharpness of the image and a definant increase in the amount of detail displayed on the screen. SD footage and even upscaled footage looks slightly "out of focus" to me now that I have watched alot of good quality HD footage and am now used to it as standard. Just remember that this HD thing is still relatively new and any programmes, shows or movies that where never recordered and mastered in HD(like MASH) will only ever be upscaled. And legally the networks only have to transmit a pretty low number of actual HD programming hours, but this will increase as more real HD quality footage becomes available for the networks to put on.

#31 wilrc1

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Posted 16 August 2009 - 11:19 PM

I don't see how changing the name to NBN would be beneficial. It has absolutely no meaning to that particular market. The name Nine at least resembles what that station has been based off of for the last two decades. What Nine should be doing is using their brand more effectively. It wouldn't hurt them to make some local idents, a bit like WIN and their 'Across Australia' or 'Part of WIN Territory' campaign. Even add a tagline to their brand, like Seven Darwin's '...goes with the Territory' in the nineties. Something that would relate to the locals and represent the stations history would be good and it would give them an advantage over the other two newer stations.

Also, it would cost Nine more money to implement separate branding for a single station. I can't see them spending any more money than they need to (which unfortunately seems to be the case for Go in Darwin.)


Nine Darwin at least provide professional television, WIN is hackville television... you should be glad you have a local channel 9, look at the quality of television in Tasmania, absolute crap.

#32 willwalk

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Posted 16 August 2009 - 11:20 PM

You know you are watching proper HD programming on ch 90 (9HD) by the little orange box that shows up in the bottom left hand corner of the screen just after the ads have been on. I have seen it regularly appear while watching the later seasons of Two and a Half Men but have not seen them on the first 2-3 seasons, with a noticable difference to the clarity and sharpness of the image and a definant increase in the amount of detail displayed on the screen. SD footage and even upscaled footage looks slightly "out of focus" to me now that I have watched alot of good quality HD footage and am now used to it as standard. Just remember that this HD thing is still relatively new and any programmes, shows or movies that where never recordered and mastered in HD(like MASH) will only ever be upscaled. And legally the networks only have to transmit a pretty low number of actual HD programming hours, but this will increase as more real HD quality footage becomes available for the networks to put on.


Is there a chance that at times the program may not be as HD native as the networks have suggested otherwise? Can it happen? Or must the program be HD native before the network can label it HD native? Is there a requirement that the network must label the HD program as native HD and an upconvert to ease the viewer's confusion? It would be a good idea if the network could label the program as native HD, and a upconvert to ease confusion. I know they put HD on some of programs, but I am not sure if they are really HD or upcovert, i just think there needs to be better labelling on the program that the viewer is watching.

Because I have a 48 cm (19") widescreen TV with a inbuilt HD tuner, I can't really see much difference between SD, upconvert and native HD, because they look all the same size. Maybe the differences are more obvious on larger widescreen TVs, am I correct? I'm just curious.

William Walker

#33 willwalk

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Posted 16 August 2009 - 11:32 PM

Nine Darwin at least provide professional television, WIN is hackville television... you should be glad you have a local channel 9, look at the quality of television in Tasmania, absolute crap.


Are you referring to how slow and late WIN was in providing local news in widescreen? Nine Darwin I admit has a upper hand in that department, it converted the local news in widescreen in 2005. Or are you referring to lack of HD programs on WIN? (Nine HD in Darwin is mostly a upconvert of Nine Darwin SD) Please explain...

I haven't seen WIN much since I left Queensland in 2003, so I cannot form a view but I was surprised to see WIN News still in 4:3 mode during my visit to Tasmania back in early February this year.

William Walker

#34 Smacca

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Posted 17 August 2009 - 01:23 AM

Nine Darwin at least provide professional television, WIN is hackville television... you should be glad you have a local channel 9, look at the quality of television in Tasmania, absolute crap.

In my opinion, Southern Cross is hackville television. Bodge news services in most regions, weird outdated marketing techniques and the lack of proper resources to keep in line with the metro networks, aka the One HD fiasco. WIN however have proper news in most regions, wisely use their metro partner's marketing to their advantage and can launch a multi-channel just as quick as the big three. WIN have flipped Perth upside down and injected more money into local news and production than Sunraysia or Bond ever did. I disagree with their logo cover-up crap, and some of their scheduling choices, but this network at least has the financial backing to keep moving forward.

#35 Alista

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Posted 17 August 2009 - 10:07 AM

Nine Darwin at least provide professional television, WIN is hackville television... you should be glad you have a local channel 9, look at the quality of television in Tasmania, absolute crap.

There is nothing wrong with WIN in Tasmania! They are probably the best TV station in Tassie in regards to commitment to adding multi channels (You don't see SCTV going out of there way to give us 7HD and I'm not hopeful about getting 7's seconds SD channel either, where as WIN put GO! on straight away)

WIN have a better news service now, often WIN and ABC are at places filming news when SCTV didn't even bother to show up.

I think the only thing propping SCTV up in Tassie are analogue viewers and the AFL. I would imagine PRIME would be a much better 7 affiliate for Tasmania since SCTV don't really care about Tassie and are only interested in money.

#36 willwalk

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Posted 17 August 2009 - 12:12 PM

There is nothing wrong with WIN in Tasmania! They are probably the best TV station in Tassie in regards to commitment to adding multi channels (You don't see SCTV going out of there way to give us 7HD and I'm not hopeful about getting 7's seconds SD channel either, where as WIN put GO! on straight away)

WIN have a better news service now, often WIN and ABC are at places filming news when SCTV didn't even bother to show up.

I think the only thing propping SCTV up in Tassie are analogue viewers and the AFL. I would imagine PRIME would be a much better 7 affiliate for Tasmania since SCTV don't really care about Tassie and are only interested in money.


Yeah I can see that WIN has improved in their services over time. I was just responding to a new poster asking him to please explain. Personally I don't see anything wrong with WIN's direction, it is only i am speaking from experience, on which I saw WIN News in 4:3 mode, I was just speaking from experience and I have yet to see a WIN News bulletin in widescreen. Perhaps I need to travel more or move interstate, and then I would have a lot more to gain to witness ONE HD and GO!, and etc, it is just a dream I am having.

Lastly I thought the new poster was a bit sour grapes or something. Personally I cannot fault WIN's commitment myself.

William Walker

#37 wilrc1

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Posted 23 August 2009 - 11:41 PM

Yeah I can see that WIN has improved in their services over time. I was just responding to a new poster asking him to please explain. Personally I don't see anything wrong with WIN's direction, it is only i am speaking from experience, on which I saw WIN News in 4:3 mode, I was just speaking from experience and I have yet to see a WIN News bulletin in widescreen. Perhaps I need to travel more or move interstate, and then I would have a lot more to gain to witness ONE HD and GO!, and etc, it is just a dream I am having.

Lastly I thought the new poster was a bit sour grapes or something. Personally I cannot fault WIN's commitment myself.

William Walker


NTD8 works on very fine margins which have obviously been set by PBL Media and CVC in Sydney according to the market size, the cost of a fibre link to Darwin to run GO and NineHD 1080 (as well as backhaul feeds) are excessive due to the restriction in competition on fibre lines into the territory.... if Win were to take over the Darwin market they would face the same issues and broadcasting such a high bit rate into a small market would not make economic sense to them either. Win in Tasmania is networked mainly through microwave links as much shorter distances and much lower costs. If you look at many Win markets, their local news services have either been drastically scaled back or removed in favor of taking the local capital city news feed.
There are no sour grapes let me assure you.

#38 willwalk

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Posted 24 August 2009 - 03:23 PM

NTD8 works on very fine margins which have obviously been set by PBL Media and CVC in Sydney according to the market size, the cost of a fibre link to Darwin to run GO and NineHD 1080 (as well as backhaul feeds) are excessive due to the restriction in competition on fibre lines into the territory.... if Win were to take over the Darwin market they would face the same issues and broadcasting such a high bit rate into a small market would not make economic sense to them either. Win in Tasmania is networked mainly through microwave links as much shorter distances and much lower costs. If you look at many Win markets, their local news services have either been drastically scaled back or removed in favor of taking the local capital city news feed.
There are no sour grapes let me assure you.


Hmm correct me if I am wrong, but doesn't Nine Darwin, SC and DDT get their feeds via satilite from where ever the feeds come from down south? Surely it can't be done via fibre? By satilite?

William Walker

#39 Alista

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Posted 24 August 2009 - 05:24 PM

I would think satellite also, using fibre would be very expensive and problematic with bandwidth etc. If Nine is using fibre I'm sure WIN would have some sense and use satellite as they use satellite heaps in WA.

Edited by Alista, 24 August 2009 - 05:28 PM.


#40 willwalk

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Posted 24 August 2009 - 05:35 PM

I would think satellite also, using fibre would be very expensive.


If it is satellite, would it really be very expensive to beam GO! and / or ONE HD to Darwin? I find the subject really debatable. Somebody have pointed out that in some SC Ten markets, they are struggling to fill in ads in ONE HD so the loop is shown instead in an ad break. If that's the case would it really do Darwin any harm to get ONE HD without any local ads or would it be too difficult?

William Walker

#41 aeon

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Posted 24 August 2009 - 10:09 PM

Somebody have pointed out that in some SC Ten markets, they are struggling to fill in ads in ONE HD so the loop is shown instead in an ad break. If that's the case would it really do Darwin any harm to get ONE HD without any local ads or would it be too difficult?


I can't recall whether it was the HD channel or the SD channel, I think it was the SD channel, but for a while locally, there'd be a couple of local ads, then it'd go back to the loop - this was happening for at least 6 months after the launch of the channel...

#42 wilrc1

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Posted 25 August 2009 - 06:42 PM

I can't recall whether it was the HD channel or the SD channel, I think it was the SD channel, but for a while locally, there'd be a couple of local ads, then it'd go back to the loop - this was happening for at least 6 months after the launch of the channel...


Nah satellite is only used for some news backhaul these days, fibre is used to connect most stations except regionals on the east coast such as Victoria where there is a microwave network connecting the stations. Satellite is way more expensive than fibre.
SCTV used to have a fibre link from Townsville but I am not sure if they still use that routing now that all their programming comes out of Canberra.

#43 Alista

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Posted 25 August 2009 - 07:37 PM

Oh okay that's interesting. It think satellite is still used in WA for GWN and WIN on D1 also the same with SCTV Central and Imparja also on D1 to distribute the signal to terrestrial stations. SBS is pretty much all satellite as they don't have state office's all state feeds are uplinked and then used in each state as required for terrestrial stations. Also ABC uses satellite a bit but not much in Tassie or Victoria.

#44 willwalk

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Posted 25 August 2009 - 07:44 PM

Nah satellite is only used for some news backhaul these days, fibre is used to connect most stations except regionals on the east coast such as Victoria where there is a microwave network connecting the stations. Satellite is way more expensive than fibre.
SCTV used to have a fibre link from Townsville but I am not sure if they still use that routing now that all their programming comes out of Canberra.


So there is a possibility that fibre has already been laid from Sydney, Melbourne and Canberra, via Adelaide and Alice springs all the way up to Darwin? Or via either Townsville, Mount Isa or where ever?

It is a long long way to lay fibre. I'm sure they would have done it by stages.

William Walker

#45 Smacca

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Posted 27 August 2009 - 11:15 PM

So there is a possibility that fibre has already been laid from Sydney, Melbourne and Canberra, via Adelaide and Alice springs all the way up to Darwin? Or via either Townsville, Mount Isa or where ever?

It is a long long way to lay fibre. I'm sure they would have done it by stages.

William Walker

The physical laying of the fibre probably isn't the issue. I'm sure Darwin has quite a big link now for communications, TV and internet use. The main issues would be the cost of leasing fibre space, installing equipment at either end, and maybe the final fibre tail going from Darwin exchange to the terrestrial TX point. I'm not ruling out the laying of new fibre, it could be needed, but it's unlikely.

#46 alanh

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Posted 28 August 2009 - 01:32 AM

All,
Fibre optic cables are essentially paid for by internet and phone traffic. Telstra also includes on this fibre optic network a Digital Video Network which TV stations use.

The Optus Aurora satellite is used for providing TV to people out of range of terrestrial transmitters. In addition the ABC and SBS also use it to distribute programs along with Impaja & 7 Central in the East & Central footprints and with WIN and GWN in the west to feed low powered transmitters over remote areas. The ABC uses it for all transmitters and SBS a lot but not all transmitters. A lot of backhaul and programs going to specific areas only usually use the DVN.

Since each network has a single playout site each, this has only been possible since the DVN. The only ones to use satellite are those who can use the common Aurora signal.

Another advantage of DVN is that the public has no access to it so they don't have to encrypt the signals for copyright and commercial reasons.
With satelites there is the renting of time, the use of microwave links have to pay for ACMA spectrum licences as well as operations and maintenance costs.

AlanH

#47 M'bozo

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Posted 28 August 2009 - 03:07 AM

Optus D1 carries ABC & SBS digital programmes in SD & HD.

Now the ABC has restricted access on the Aurora platform to the state your smartcard is registered for as of a few days ago, this is at the moment the only way to see time shifted native widescreen programmes.

link

I'm not sure why this has happened, presumably it follows the reason I was given when the local ABC radio access on Aurora was nobbled some years ago, which was to limit users from hearing reports of incidents happening within their state from a news service in another state.

Like this is really important, given the internet?

#48 Smacca

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Posted 28 August 2009 - 09:55 PM

All,
Fibre optic cables are essentially paid for by internet and phone traffic. Telstra also includes on this fibre optic network a Digital Video Network which TV stations use.

The Optus Aurora satellite is used for providing TV to people out of range of terrestrial transmitters. In addition the ABC and SBS also use it to distribute programs along with Impaja & 7 Central in the East & Central footprints and with WIN and GWN in the west to feed low powered transmitters over remote areas. The ABC uses it for all transmitters and SBS a lot but not all transmitters. A lot of backhaul and programs going to specific areas only usually use the DVN.

As M'bozo pointed out, ABC and SBS use Optus D1 to feed most of their transmitter sites these days. Of course, there are still a few self-help sites that take the C1 Aurora feeds. Lately, GWN and WIN have changed to D1 to feed most of their network in the lead-up to digital. Also, Southern Cross has a backup transponder on D1 which is used for situations where DVN or microwave links fail.

Since each network has a single playout site each, this has only been possible since the DVN. The only ones to use satellite are those who can use the common Aurora signal.

...or the Optus D1 signal.

Another advantage of DVN is that the public has no access to it so they don't have to encrypt the signals for copyright and commercial reasons.
With satelites there is the renting of time, the use of microwave links have to pay for ACMA spectrum licences as well as operations and maintenance costs.

AlanH

A sample of a typical DVN test card can be seen during this technical mishap on Sky Racing:

Edited by Smacca, 28 August 2009 - 09:56 PM.


#49 wilrc1

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Posted 28 August 2009 - 11:30 PM

As M'bozo pointed out, ABC and SBS use Optus D1 to feed most of their transmitter sites these days. Of course, there are still a few self-help sites that take the C1 Aurora feeds. Lately, GWN and WIN have changed to D1 to feed most of their network in the lead-up to digital. Also, Southern Cross has a backup transponder on D1 which is used for situations where DVN or microwave links fail.


...or the Optus D1 signal.


A sample of a typical DVN test card can be seen during this technical mishap on Sky Racing:


If you ever get inside one of the network stations in Syd or Mel its quite amazing to see what they have coming down their fibre links, always feeds from other capitals in addition to their US and UK affiliate signals. Fibre allows stations to transmit high quality HD signals over long distances, so a link to Darwin theoretically would be inexpensive and easy to set up... except for the fact the only high capacity cables are owned by Telstra via the centre or nth qld.
Go will be shown in Darwin soon but thats only because nine has purchased more bandwidth from telstra.