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Network Streaming And Dsd Bitstreams - Is It Better For Sq?

mp3 DSD Bitstream Music Steaming

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#1 Chopsus

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Posted 01 September 2014 - 10:56 AM

I regularly bit-stream DSD or Network Streaming to the on-board DACs in my Marantz 8801:

 

Q1: does this remove the possibility of Jitter?

 

Q2: This would be the best path for SQ (assuming the 8801's DACs are as good as or better than any of my other gear)?

 

Q3: If 1 and 2 are correct, then shouldn't all Audiophiles be into network music streaming rather than worrying about disc transports?

 

Just wondering...


Edited by Chopsus, 01 September 2014 - 10:57 AM.


#2 doggiehowser

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Posted 01 September 2014 - 12:40 PM

I'm not sure the 8801 receives DSD or hires over the network

Are you using uPNP?

#3 Chopsus

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Posted 01 September 2014 - 01:27 PM

I'm not sure the 8801 receives DSD or hires over the network

Are you using uPNP?

 

Sorry for DSD I am playing via Oppo 105

 

Over network it plays Flac, which is lossless AFAIK (and a bunch of others)

 

So I guess those questions are effectively doubled ... but I am thinking jitter should not effect any of them, even the Oppo, as it is a bitstream being decoded on-board the 8801

 

No not uPNP ... via an SMB Share on my Synology, so there is no trans-coding or anything.


Edited by Chopsus, 01 September 2014 - 01:28 PM.


#4 doggiehowser

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Posted 01 September 2014 - 01:57 PM

I can't say I have used the 8801 for music streaming much.

As for the Oppo, there's jitter using HDMI which is a whole factor higher in jitter than SPDIF.

Ps as I understand it, there's still jitter internal to the DAC even if you remove the contribution from SPDIF.

#5 Chopsus

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Posted 01 September 2014 - 02:59 PM

I would have thought that if the HDMI was just being used as a data stream and buffered before the DAC (assuming) that there would be no jitter as it should just be raw data going into the DAC.

 

If not then the 7.1 analogue outs on the 105 should be superior (ie no jitter) but I don't think it sounds as good as DSD direct to the 8801.



#6 doggiehowser

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Posted 01 September 2014 - 04:39 PM

There's jitter inherent in any digital circuit.

And HDMI jitter is particularly high. Esp vs conventional SPDIF.

http://www.madronadi...udioJitter.html

#7 doggiehowser

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Posted 01 September 2014 - 04:41 PM

Ps if you enable any form of bass management or room EQ on the 8801, you are re converting the analog signal from the Oppo back into digital for processing.

Ditto with DSD

#8 Chopsus

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Posted 01 September 2014 - 05:27 PM

that seals it then ... enough reading esoteric, audiophile rubbish ... I am going back to my ears and bugger what the Egg-Spurts reckon.



#9 Snoopy8

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Posted 01 September 2014 - 05:44 PM

that seals it then ... enough reading esoteric, audiophile rubbish ... I am going back to my ears and bugger what the Egg-Spurts reckon.

I was confused by what your original question was?   You were trying compare formats (FLAC vs DSD), different DACs (Oppp vs 8801) and throw in jitter on the disk transport and HDMI!!  As doggiehowser mentioned, jitter is inherent in all digital equipment, but can your hear the difference caused by jitter? 

 

I agree, go with the ears...

 

Regards, Snoopy8 (aka ccs, thought I will make it easier if name matched avatar...)



#10 Chopsus

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Posted 01 September 2014 - 06:30 PM

No ... Simply asking if jitter was involved in either as it seemed to me that onboard DACs would be superior to other methods of getting signal to the pre or receiver.

#11 HTPC-Guru

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Posted 01 September 2014 - 08:07 PM

This is why a lot of quality dacs use usb to get rid of the hdmi jitter!



#12 Chopsus

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Posted 01 September 2014 - 08:16 PM

In the case if streaming FLAC via Ethernet there would have to be less jitter.

#13 doggiehowser

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Posted 01 September 2014 - 09:07 PM

I think you have to consider the entire chain for playback.

 

Files on HDD -> transport -> computer (either a generic one or an optimised player that can read files and play that back -> output as SPDIF/I2S/HDMI either internally or via an external connection like USB/FW etc -> digital to analog conversion chipset -> analog output

 

The transport could be an internal SATA drive or external USB/Thunderbolt/FireWire or Ethernet.

 

The Oppo is one such computer, so is the Marantz 8801. 

 

From my experience, the 8801's digital to analog conversion while perfectly acceptable is nowhere as good as the one I have even in something as affordable as my Teac UD-501 or iFi Audio micro iDSD. 

 

There are similar systems that integrate the computer with an internal DAC that eschews an external SPDIF/USB connection that IMHO could outperform multiple components - e.g. the Sony HAP-Z1ES or the PerfectWave DACs with the built in Network Bridge.



#14 Chopsus

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Posted 01 September 2014 - 09:55 PM

With streaming from the Synology via an SMB share the "chain" = 0 as it's the 8801 that is "playing" the data directly. There is no HDMI, USB, SPDIF it's direct 10/100 Ethernet.

#15 doggiehowser

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Posted Yesterday, 12:14 AM

The 8801 has the DAC and the "computer" internally. It's very likely it uses an I2S or SPDIF connection internally though. 



#16 Chopsus

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Posted Yesterday, 07:53 AM

Ok ... The intent of my OP was to suggest that internal decoding of such things should "in theory" be better than outboard decoding and transmission via analogue (and certainly any digital connection) where the internal DAC is the same (as with the Oppo).

Having said that ... I cannot discern a difference between DSD->UPCM via the Oppo and DSD->8801 ... Why this is an issue is the latter requires changes in the settings of both the 8801 and the Oppo and I am trying to establish if they worth doing whenever I listed to an SACD.

The same for CD vs FLAC streaming (from an SMB share) ... The latter should be superior ... In this case though, I think the implementation of the Oppos XLRs have a noticeable edge over the FLAC stream even though the DACs are the same.

Having said all that, as Doggie pointed out, use of any room correction overrides any of this and at the end of the day, on my system, everything sounds far better with Audyssey engaged, than not.

... So, rather than think out loud about it, I should just trust my ears and not worry about trying to establish what "should" be the best path ... But thinking about it is also an interesting excercise.

#17 Snoopy8

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Posted Yesterday, 11:57 AM

The same for CD vs FLAC streaming (from an SMB share) ... The latter should be superior ... In this case though, I think the implementation of the Oppos XLRs have a noticeable edge over the FLAC stream even though the DACs are the same.

My preferred music listening is FLAC -> asynch usb -> DAC -> XLR -> powered speakers.  Sound improvements due to FLAC better than CD, XLR better than RCA, DAC better than Oppo 103 (if I had a 105, would be interesting comparison).  Unable to test asynch USB vs Ethernet (DAC does not have one).

 

Have tried various combinations of feeding FLAC to speakers via DAC or Oppo 103, then through Anthem AVR (with & without audio correction).  Cannot beat the above with a simple chain (less noise, less jitter) of good components. 



#18 Chopsus

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Posted Yesterday, 12:29 PM

I suspect the XLR output on the 105 is close to your asynch usb->DAC->XLR



#19 Snoopy8

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Posted Yesterday, 01:38 PM

I suspect the XLR output on the 105 is close to your asynch usb->DAC->XLR

The 105 was not out when I bought my Audiolab CDQ9200 DAC. I would not be surprised if the 105 performs well.

 

As an aside, I even tried asynch usb from the NAS vs laptop, slightly better from laptop. I suspect difference was due to Foobar on Win laptop being better than Synology DS Audio. I abandoned the test because DS Audio App could not control DAC volume, and Audiolab remote could not control other things. 



#20 Chopsus

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Posted Yesterday, 01:43 PM

Was the laptop running on battery or mains?

 

I would propose that the battery might serve as a cleaner power source, perhaps even power buffer.



#21 Snoopy8

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Posted Yesterday, 02:18 PM

Was the laptop running on battery or mains?

 

I would propose that the battery might serve as a cleaner power source, perhaps even power buffer.

Made no discernible audio difference between running on mains or battery. And it is a cheap Lenovo with a standard usb cable (and not about to get one of those so-called hifi grade usb cables!). Laptop, DAC, speakers are connected to power conditioning board which switches each item sequentially on and off.



#22 mmu16

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Posted Yesterday, 03:54 PM

I suppose with a laptop you would not get mains distortion since the mains cable goes into the external powerpack which convers AC to DC and feeds into the internal power manager which charges the battery, which powers the laptop? Kinda lost after reading doggie's explanation. *cue - over my head. Feel Atmos'd.  :pinch: I claim this term!!!


Edited by mmu16, Yesterday, 03:55 PM.


#23 Chopsus

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Posted Yesterday, 04:16 PM

Made no discernible audio difference between running on mains or battery. And it is a cheap Lenovo with a standard usb cable (and not about to get one of those so-called hifi grade usb cables!). Laptop, DAC, speakers are connected to power conditioning board which switches each item sequentially on and off.

 

What's the power conditioner BTW and are the sequential on/offs adjustable?