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Get The Best Reception Regional Nsw


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#1 alanh

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Posted 02 February 2005 - 09:17 PM

.

Edited by alanh, 25 March 2013 - 12:07 AM.


#2 mtv

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Posted 01 April 2007 - 07:23 PM

Before deciding what is required to provide the best reception, first you must know what signal levels and quality are present at a given location.

The key to digital reception is obtaining signals of adequate power and quality At THE ANTENNA.

Amplifiers should only be used to compensate for distribution losses, not to try and increase signals which are too low/not present.

Over-use of amplifiers without prior knowledge of signal power and Bit Error Rates is almost guaranteed to not only amplify existing problems, but to also create new ones.

Selection of the correct antenna for a particular location, together with accurate digital measurements to locate the best mounting location for the antenna are things which make every installation unique.

A "blanket post" across every regional area DTV forum recommending such bad practice may be considered 'trolling'.

As you are a new member, having only joined the forum today, burnoutking2 perhaps you could share with us your location, what channels you are receiving and from where, and what antennas and amplifiers you are using to achieve this.

I have my suspicions this poster is closely related to recently suspended troll, tyrewarmer20/dodgy

#3 HennryJH

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Posted 22 December 2009 - 10:53 AM

G'day, This is my first post or reply.
I have just purchase a FDHD TV (22 Dec 2009)and set it up but my reception is poor. I am in Cootamundra NSW. My antenna is pointed at Mt Ulandra but is probably 10 years old. Does anyone know a person in Coota that will install and set up the appropriate Antenna for me.

THanks
Hennry.

All,

Analog TV switchoffs are;
ACT & Southern NSW including MIA, Central Tablelands and Central Western Slopes (including WIN)between 1st January - 30th June 2012
Northern areas including the Hunter Valley (including NBN) between 1st July - 31st December 2012
Remote SA (Impaja and 7 Central) between 1st July - 31st December 2013


Follow the sequence below to determine what you need to do. This applies to new and existing installations, in which pixellates (picture breaks up into blocks) and the sound chirps)

Antenna Selection

1. Determine the most appropriate transmitter site
Most regions have a main transmitter shown in bold and some translators. Translator is of lower power than the main transmitter for the region. Translators are used to fill in a shadow area caused by the local terrain. A translator converts the signal from one channel to another to prevent interference

Click on
Transmitter List
to find you likely transmitter site(s)

Open on another screen Coverage Area Maps and select the state and your DTV transmitter. If present this will give you a coverage area map to determine which site is best for you.

If an antenna technician can provide evidence that there are no signals at your site, you can get the ABC, SBS, two commercial stations and some radio channels directly from a satellite. Go to the end of this post.


2. Select the antenna type
From the spreadsheet use the antenna type to select the link below


H4
H4+
H5
H34+
H35
H3Wb
V3
V4
V4+
V5
C34
C34+

Caravans/Marine
Band 3, 4 - 5

Indoor Antennas

Antenna Type Drawings

“Antenna Replace”
Red background, white print.

Digital TV will never use channels 0 – 5A. This is due to the problem of impulse noise from electrical switching and arcing. You can minimise this problem if you antenna is not designed for these channels. Channel 0 – 5A antennas are very wide and are more liable to get bird and wind damage as well.

The best antenna is one designed for the TV channels to be received in your area. This is because all of the metal work will get used. This gives greater sensitivity to the channels you want and less to the unwanted ones.

“Antenna Replace”
Pale Blue background, red print.
A change in UHF band. Only replace antenna if the signals break up which may be weather dependent.
an
All analog channels within the antenna channel range will
ABC1 analog Narooma, Ashford, Inverell, Lithgow, Mudgee, Nyngan, Cobar, Broken Hill
Prime Central Tablelands, Mudgee, Khancoban, SW Slopes/E Riverina
WIN/NBN analog Bega, Murrurundi
Cabling SW Slopes/E Riverina
It should be quad shielded RG6 with F connectors at any joins.
This is to minimise the pick up of electrical switching and TV signals other than picked up by the antenna.

Masthead amplifiers Should only be considered if the measured signal strength digital signals show there is too little signal. If that is not an option try the above techniques first.

Recognising interference
Better Television & Radio Reception
If you are within 6 km of the guyed lattice towers at Cumnock or Grafton. Please report his on this strand for further advice.

Please note this is general information. Use an antenna installer who can measure and error rates of digital signals (They should be able to give you Bit Error Rates (BER) figures of less than 1 in 10 000.) If they cannot do this, get someone else.

Apartments and retirement villages use Master Antenna TV systems (MATV)

MDU Handbook. This document is designed for presentation to the Body Corporate or the building owners.

Remember that analog transmitters will be switched off between Dec 2009 Metro, and 2013 in the last regional areas.

These systems contain amplifiers for individual channels. In any non-digital installations you will generally find some digital channels are not receivable due to this filtering. Prior to upgrading or installing an MATV system make sure all receivers are digital or have a set top box. This will mean that the channel amplifiers can be retuned or replaced rather than installing another set of 5 amplifiers. Then specify that the installation must conform to Australian Standard 1367-2007. This will ensure that all digital channels will be available, including HD and surround sound when available.

Radio – FM, DAB and DRM
FM
None of the antennas listed above are designed to receive FM radio. The best way is to have an independent system Please read FM Antennas

DRM is another type of digital radio which will replace AM radio and will not use any of the above equipment.

More Information
How to get into Digital TV Pt 2 -What to do about the antenna "Silicon Chip" April 2008
For TV Antenna Basics +
For Radio Thread

:wacko: Please post any queries in this geographic viewer's forum
Out of area reception
Copy existing post

If an antenna technician can prove no TV signals are available, then a free to air satellite receiver is an option.
Stations available


The programs are transmitted through the satellite in digital form, but in some towns are then retransmitted in analog. A home satellite receiver will receive the signal in digital, however there is none of the enhancements such as multi channel, wide screen etc.


To obtain reception read the following link
Out of area reception

AlanH B)

:wacko: Please post any queries in this geographic viewer's forum



#4 alanh

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Posted 22 December 2009 - 03:08 PM

Hennry,
Firstly Cootamundra has its own analog transmitters. It will probably get digital transmitters some time between now and the beginning of 2012.
You only want a band 5 antenna, when the local digital transmitters start operation you can rotate the antenna to point at the Bimadeen Water Tower

When you have 5 posts up, then message MTV and see if he can help.
If not use the yellow pages and only accept installers who can measure the bit error rate with a digital field strength meter.

AlanH

#5 Tony Brown

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Posted 21 April 2010 - 08:53 PM

Hi all, this is my first post as well, after searching for any info on my location without any luck, could someone please point me to someone who can professionally install the correct antenna for Colinton/Michelago NSW area?

My existing antenna is probably 20+ years old and I suspect it is the cause of all the chirping/pixellation and poor reception on Prime and SBS.

Please pardon my lack of knowledge but can someone advise the correct type of antenna and orientation in case I have to haul my 50 year old butt onto the roof and climb up the chimney to do this myself?

#6 Tony Brown

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Posted 23 April 2010 - 06:46 PM

Anyone?

#7 mtv

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Posted 23 April 2010 - 09:47 PM

Anyone?



Forum member gadget installs in the Canberra area, but not sure if he goes that far south.

You will need a minimum of 5 posts before you can use the PM feature.

See how to get your post count up in my sig (red text below).

If you are receiving your signals from Black Mountain, you require a band 3 VHF (channels 6-12) antenna vertically polarised and a band 4 antenna for SBS, horizontally polarised, coupled with a diplexer, or a combination cross-polarised band 3&4 VHF/UHF antenna.

Separate antennas usually perform better than a single combination antenna.

I don't know your area, so an installer with local knowledge would be best to advise you.

You should also use good-quality coax. eg: RG6 Quadshield and F connectors.

#8 alanh

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Posted 23 April 2010 - 10:34 PM

Tony,
There is also a new set of transmitters on Mt Roberts which use an entirely different typ of antenna
See the first post in this strand.

AlanH

#9 Tony Brown

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Posted 24 April 2010 - 08:50 AM

Thanks for the replies, I looked at the pdf and it suggests that I need a V4+ antenna for Mt Roberts.

I have spoken to a couple of installers in Canberra but since I am 30 minutes out of town, they want to charge exorbitant travelling charges, even though they will travel 45 minutes across Canberra at no extra cost???? This sound like a rort to me.

I will probably have a go at it myself (as long as I dont kill myself in the process) and may initially modify my existing antenna and point it at Mt Roberts to test first.

Your answers are appreciated and I expect I will probably get some flaming but please go easy, I am very new to this and answers are hard to find if you don't know the terminology.

Regards, Tony

Edited by Tony Brown, 24 April 2010 - 01:16 PM.


#10 mtv

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Posted 24 April 2010 - 04:53 PM

Thanks for the replies, I looked at the pdf and it suggests that I need a V4+ antenna for Mt Roberts.

I have spoken to a couple of installers in Canberra but since I am 30 minutes out of town, they want to charge exorbitant travelling charges, even though they will travel 45 minutes across Canberra at no extra cost???? This sound like a rort to me.

I will probably have a go at it myself (as long as I dont kill myself in the process) and may initially modify my existing antenna and point it at Mt Roberts to test first.

Your answers are appreciated and I expect I will probably get some flaming but please go easy, I am very new to this and answers are hard to find if you don't know the terminology.

Regards, Tony


Tony,

It all depends on which transmission site signals are reaching your location the best.

From the ACMA list, SBS isn't available from Mt Roberts, but I don't know if that's still the case.

Where is your current antenna pointed... Black Mountain, or Mt Roberts?

The Mt Roberts transmitters have a directional pattern towards Cooma, so even though you may be a bit closer to them, you may have lower signals compared to Black Mountain.

It's really a matter of testing to determine which site will provide the best result for you.

As per my earlier post, for Black Mountain you require a band 3 VHF (channels 6-12) antenna vertically polarised and a band 4 antenna for SBS, horizontally polarised, coupled with a diplexer, or a combination cross-polarised band 3&4 VHF/UHF antenna.

For Mt Roberts a UHF band 4+ or wideband (both bands 4&5) vertically polarised (with the elements facing up/down) is required.

A good antenna for this is a UHF phased array.

#11 bellotv

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Posted 24 April 2010 - 08:03 PM

Tony
Depends what you were quoted as extortionate travel but generally a trades person will have several jobs as they travel across town that covers the travel component.
Whereas if you are the only job in your direction,you pay.

Perhaps I'm a fool but I share the travel between all the jobs on a country run.I usually find that if someone rings up from say Ebor,then they usually have a freind or neighbour thats also in need and it works out better for all parties.

Try ringing around and see if installers or neighbours are up to it.

A good installer is so worth it to have at your place.

#12 Tony Brown

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Posted 24 April 2010 - 09:02 PM

Thanks alanh and bellotv, for both your replies and being patient with a noob. I have a feeling that I need to have an installer come to my property as only specialized equipment and expertise is going to do the job.

I will usually have a go at nearly anything myself first but the thought of messing around 6-7 metres off the ground and still not getting a result does not excite me.

Good suggestion about seeing who else nearby needs a specialist as well, as your comments about having jobs in a similar areas do make sense.

I will let you know how it turns out (antenna, transmitter etc) for future reference.

Regards, Tony Brown

Edited by Tony Brown, 24 April 2010 - 09:03 PM.


#13 bellotv

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Posted 27 April 2010 - 11:01 PM

All,

Please note this is general information. Use an antenna installer who can measure and error rates of digital signals (They should be able to give you Bit Error Rates (BER) figures of less than 8e-4.) If they cannot do this, get someone else.

AlanH B)

:wacko: Please post any queries in this geographic viewer's forum

So if any punters out there have read this and are with AlanH so far ,the reference to measuring "and error rates" should read "Bit error rates" not and error rates
Digital Meters measure the Bit error ratio ( not bit error rate) at two points ,the signal before and after the first error correction system( the viterbi error corrector) in a decoder

Now Alan hasn't stated (as he never does) whether he is referring to channel BER ( CH BER) or post viterbi BER (Pv BER)
These are also referred to as B BER (before Viterbi) and A BER (after viterbi) depending on the brand of meter the antenna tech has.

AlanH has stated that an antenna installer should be able to give you a BER less than 8e-04.
What does this mean ?????

Well if its a channel BER then its OK.If it's a Post Viterbi BER then it's at the point where digital TV will brake up regularly and its BAD . You must clarify this . Is it CH BER or Pv BER?
It should be CH BER or B BER

AlanH has stated that the BER must be "LESS THAN 8e-04"
What is "Less than " ???

If referring to Bit Error rate then less is better BUT in the real world ALL DIGITAL METERS READ BIT ERROR RATIO ( not bit error rate) so MORE IS BETTER .

So what does 8e-04 Mean ??
The 04 part is scientific notation representing a number of bits of data recieved .
04 =10,000 bits of data
05 = 100,000 bits of data
06 =1,000,000 bits of data etc

the 8e refers to how much of that data is faulty.
I.E 8e-04 means that 8 bit's in every 10,000 are faulty.



The installer has measured your signal .Its Channel BER 7e-03
Is 7e-03 better or worse than 8e-04 ????

7 bits are faulty in every 1,000, so it is worse than Alans SUGGESTED 8 faulty bits in every 10,000
Although the numbers are lower and at first glance the LESS ARE BETTER suggestion would guide the unwary to the wrong conclusion.
It is WORSE than Alan suggests.

The installer has measured the signal .It is Channel BER 1.5e-06
Is it good or bad ??
This is 1.5 bits faulty in 1,000,000 bits of data .At first glance the "AlanH recommendation of less is best "would raise the heckles of the less informed.
This is as good as a digital meter can measure .It is on the border of perfection.


The installer has measured the signal .It is Pv BER9e -07.
Is it good or bad ??
This is a Post viterbi BER reading so be aware.

It is 9 faulty bits in 10,000,000 BITS OF VITERBI CORRECTED DATA.
Sounds good but be aware.Anything less than 1e-08 on PV bER is skating on skid row and if your conditions are stable then you're probably OK but if you have trees nearby that blow in the wind or you are in a low signal area then you will likely get occasional dropouts.

There is a lot of possibility of being confused on this web site .

Trust your local antenna installer .Say no more!!!

Edited by bellotv, 27 April 2010 - 11:24 PM.


#14 mtv

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Posted 27 April 2010 - 11:36 PM

Nicely explained, bello. :)

#15 alanh

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Posted 28 April 2010 - 12:52 AM

BelloTV,
Values of errors I have quoted are prior to any error correction ie Channel BER or aBER or Pre-Viterbi. The value quoted is from Australian Standard 1367
MER is the error ratio after all error correction and is not quoted as a ratio but in dB instead.

So BER will give the true level of errors. Post Viterbi BER is the errors left after the first attempt at error correction using the Viterbi Error Corrector. The signal is now Reed Solomon error corrected. The MER shows how well the error correction system can remove the errors.

So the antenna installation should be adjusted to minimise the channel BER. Once this has been achieved the MER should be >25 dB

These values and Post Viberti <2 x 10-7 then the meter will give you the green block to say the signal is acceptable to the standard.

You are quite correct about the exponents. This is why the Channel BER may be as large as 8 x 10-4 but after error correction you would expect that many errors should be removed making the post Viberti much less tolerant of errors at <2 x 10-7

So when DVB-T2 is used the BER may increase because it is capable of 16 signal levels at 16 different phase angles, however T2 has a more efficient error correction system. Compare this with the DVB -T standard of 4 x 4 signal level and phase or 8 x 8 level and phase.

You say "trust your local installer" unfortunately there is no requirements for you local antenna installer to have learnt anything about antenna installing. When I see huge number of new antennas being installed which are designed for band 1 & 2, I really wonder about your statement.
At least my statement will ensure the local antenna installer has a digital field strength meter.

AlanH

#16 mtv

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Posted 28 April 2010 - 11:39 AM

Values of errors I have quoted are prior to any error correction ie Channel BER or aBER or Pre-Viterbi.


That statement demonstrates how little you really know and understand.

aBER is 'after' BER, or 'post'-viterbi, but you are claiming it is pre-viterbi, or before correction.


At least my statement will ensure the local antenna installer has a digital field strength meter.


Just because you say so?..... What a ridiculous claim!

On that basis, your statement doesn't work, as I have seen several and know of several antenna installers who don't have a digital field strength meter.

#17 alanh

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Posted 28 April 2010 - 07:57 PM

Col,
Do would you recommend these antenna installers without a Digital Field Strength meter?
After all they are "qualified" antenna installers

AlanH

#18 mtv

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Posted 28 April 2010 - 08:21 PM

Col,
Do would you recommend these antenna installers without a Digital Field Strength meter?
After all they are "qualified" antenna installers

AlanH


I really thought you would know the answer to that without asking.

#19 bellotv

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Posted 28 April 2010 - 10:03 PM

AlanH
I agree with you that an antenna system should be adjusted for Minimum errors but my point is that by giving a figure to the public and then saying that they should be aiming for lower figure is completely miss-leading and confusing because the public have no Idead what 8e-04 means .

To them its just a number "and If AlanH has said on the DBA forum "it needs to be less then lower numbers must be better right ?

So if 7e-03 is less because the numbers are lower than 8e-04 then it must be better BUT IT ISN'T is it ! I bet less than 1 in 10,000 of the public have any idea about scientific notation.

My other point is that because you don't specify CH BER or PV BER ,it would be possible for an unscrupulous type to show PV BER readings to an "enlightened DBA forum reader" and pass them off as wonderful BER readings .

#20 ChaosMaster

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Posted 28 April 2010 - 10:08 PM

So when DVB-T2 is used the BER may increase because it is capable of 16 signal levels at 16 different phase angles, however T2 has a more efficient error correction system. Compare this with the DVB -T standard of 4 x 4 signal level and phase or 8 x 8 level and phase.


Which is not relevant to the current discussion on DVB-T, as the acceptable ChBER and aBER will be completely different for DVB-T2, by definition, owing to the completely different characteristics of the new BCH/LDPC FEC used as opposed to the current RS/Convolutional system, and will also depend on the specific modulation and code rates used. Please stick to the topic and don't try to escape the question by dragging in irrelevant information. We are talking about DVB-T(1) here. Nothing else.

Note to any newbies reading the above post - please disregard, information directed at alanh only.

#21 alanh

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Posted 28 April 2010 - 11:59 PM

BelloTV.
I agree that I should have explained "Better than".
I am currently updating the transmitter list. I wll fix the "Get the Best Reception" posts then.

AlanH

#22 charlesc

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Posted 04 May 2010 - 03:39 PM

Incorrect

BelloTV,
Values of errors I have quoted are prior to any error correction ie Channel BER or aBER or Pre-Viterbi. The value quoted is from Australian Standard 1367
MER is the error ratio after all error correction and is not quoted as a ratio but in dB instead.

So BER will give the true level of errors. Post Viterbi BER is the errors left after the first attempt at error correction using the Viterbi Error Corrector. The signal is now Reed Solomon error corrected.
The MER shows how well the error correction system can remove the errors.

So the antenna installation should be adjusted to minimise the channel BER. Once this has been achieved the MER should be >25 dB

AlanH





MER and BER are both key measurements to be taken.
In the DVB-T system, their measurement take-off point is essentially the same.

Modulation Error Ratio (MER) is not measured "after all error correction".
And it doesn't ... shows how well the error correction system can remove the errors.
This shows a fundemental misunderstanding of how the DVB-T system operates. And what some of the key measurements are to try and make sure there is a reliable digital signal there.



This detail is taken further here.

#23 dokworm

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Posted 15 May 2010 - 11:09 AM

A change in UHF band. Only replace antenna if the signals break up which may be weather dependent.
an
All analog channels within the antenna channel range will
ABC1 analog Narooma, Ashford, Inverell, Lithgow, Mudgee, Nyngan, Cobar, Broken Hill
Prime Central Tablelands, Mudgee, Khancoban, SW Slopes/E Riverina
WIN/NBN analog Bega, Murrurundi
Cabling SW Slopes/E Riverina


I'm not sure what the above means after the 'an'. Is there a missing line?

Also where can I find out when digital channels are going to be switched on in my area? (mudgee). Thanks.

#24 kate_dee

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Posted 21 May 2010 - 05:41 PM

Hi everybody,

I just purchased a Elgato Eyetv DVB-T USB stick for my laptop, as well as a Dick Smith L4069 Indoor TV Antenna. As I am currently studying at the University of New England in Armidale, I am not able to use an external antenna due to internal policies at my residential hall on campus.

At this time, I having issues getting my Antenna to pick up any coverage in any way shape or form. I currently have my antenna directed towards "Little Duval Mountain" which is the Primary site for this area, however I can't pick anything up whatsoever. Am I being too wishful thinking that this will work, or is it just blind luck that this darn thing isn't working?

#25 bellotv

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Posted 21 May 2010 - 06:37 PM

Hi everybody,

I just purchased a Elgato Eyetv DVB-T USB stick for my laptop, as well as a Dick Smith L4069 Indoor TV Antenna. As I am currently studying at the University of New England in Armidale, I am not able to use an external antenna due to internal policies at my residential hall on campus.

At this time, I having issues getting my Antenna to pick up any coverage in any way shape or form. I currently have my antenna directed towards "Little Duval Mountain" which is the Primary site for this area, however I can't pick anything up whatsoever. Am I being too wishful thinking that this will work, or is it just blind luck that this darn thing isn't working?


You can go round in circles trying to tune in a digital signal on internal antennas .
If they are not in the right position there is nothing being picked up for the tuner to "lock" onto.Without a "pretuned" channel ,you can't find where to position them .

If possible,see if you can take your laptop to somewhere where there is a known good antenna (preferably an outside one) ,plug this into your laptop and tune your channels on that.
Once back in your room,you can plug your indoor antenna in and move it around until you find a place where it might work.

My experience with USB stick tuners and indoor antennas is that they suck.
USB stick and many PC tuner cards usually need more signal that Set top box's or TV's with built in digital tuners generally need to work and this is compounded by the fact that indoor antennas generally scrape the bottom of the barrel regarding strong clean signals.
TV signals and in particular UHF ones as you are trying to receive don't penetrate buildings very well.

You may find that an outdoor UHF antenna will work better indoors than some tricky dick indoor antenna but it must be mounted vertical for the transmitter you are aiming for.

Another trick that may help is to borrow an analog TV (or try the analog tuner in the stick if it has one) and see if you can get some analog channels first. Use this to help find a "better "position for your indoor antenna and then try another digital rescan.

Hope this helps ,Bellotv