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X30 Vs 9000W


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#1 jmone

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Posted 18 February 2012 - 08:35 AM

I've read the threads and various reviews but I'm interested esp from those that have comparted the two, what is the comparitive strengh / weakness of the two and (price asside) what is the "better" machine (comming from a LX608a)?

From what I have gathered:
- x30: Best Black Levels
- 9000w: Good Black Levels, Wireless HDMI connectivity, Better at 3d, longer wty...

Thanks

#2 bbar

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Posted 18 February 2012 - 08:44 AM

I've read the threads and various reviews but I'm interested esp from those that have comparted the two, what is the comparitive strengh / weakness of the two and (price asside) what is the "better" machine (comming from a LX608a)?

From what I have gathered:
- x30: Best Black Levels
- 9000w: Good Black Levels, Wireless HDMI connectivity, Better at 3d, longer wty...

Thanks


Agree with your assessment and would add -

- JVC X30 has power zoom, focus and lens shift with memory allowing for a scope screen and easier adjustments.
- 9000w has a CMS though both have excellent colour in their 'best mode' pre-sets
- 9000w is slightly brighter in 'best mode' so lamp will last longer or you could squeeze a bit bigger screen if stretched for brightness.

Basically you could not go wrong with either :phone: though if 3D is a factor then would go the Epson as the 3D on JVC is supposedly not brilliant as there is ghosting on many titles.
If however scope screen is something that you could pursue then JVC is a must.

Edited by bbar, 18 February 2012 - 08:49 AM.


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Posted 18 February 2012 - 08:51 AM

re black levels I will say in real terms theres nothing really much in it between them have seen the x30 in action and have a 9000 myself. where I think would make a difference is you indeed had a full light controlled bat cave this I beleive is where the x30 would excel. otherwise with the kind of light reflection you get off normal typical white walled ceiling rooms. the additional contrast ability of the jvc in these situations doesnt amount to much.

where the epson excels is on a few other front. light output. no comparison sorry the jvc just wont come close. where this important again is if less than ideal conditions eg with some light leakage etc during the day the light output of the epson will win.

3D no comparison the 3d performance of the jvc is ordinary from what I saw on demo. the epson is extremely good, better in my opinion what can be had in commercial theatres (imax aside)

flexibility of installation both very good in this instance the epson though is more flexible in zoom, side and vertical shift. comes in handy depending on installation

out of box performance. the epson on thx mode and eco lamp is extremely natural to the point calibration doesnt tweak much more out of it. JVC I would factor in a calibration to get best out of it and keep in mind the JVC does not have a full colour management like the upper model JVCs and the epson which is full ISF certified for calibrations.

otherwise another area is the zoom and shift memory for the jvc which the epson doesnt have (important if planning to zoom for scope) but if using a lens the epson has all needed or this.

in real terms I would say a lot less between em than people suggest.

as a pio kuro series owner very happy with my epson 9000 :)

#4 MRCRIST

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Posted 18 February 2012 - 09:04 AM

re black levels I will say in real terms theres nothing really much in it between them have seen the x30 in action and have a 9000 myself. where I think would make a difference is you indeed had a full light controlled bat cave this I beleive is where the x30 would excel. otherwise with the kind of light reflection you get off normal typical white walled ceiling rooms. the additional contrast ability of the jvc in these situations doesnt amount to much.

where the epson excels is on a few other front. light output. no comparison sorry the jvc just wont come close. where this important again is if less than ideal conditions eg with some light leakage etc during the day the light output of the epson will win.

3D no comparison the 3d performance of the jvc is ordinary from what I saw on demo. the epson is extremely good, better in my opinion what can be had in commercial theatres (imax aside)

flexibility of installation both very good in this instance the epson though is more flexible in zoom, side and vertical shift. comes in handy depending on installation

out of box performance. the epson on thx mode and eco lamp is extremely natural to the point calibration doesnt tweak much more out of it. JVC I would factor in a calibration to get best out of it and keep in mind the JVC does not have a full colour management like the upper model JVCs and the epson which is full ISF certified for calibrations.

otherwise another area is the zoom and shift memory for the jvc which the epson doesnt have (important if planning to zoom for scope) but if using a lens the epson has all needed or this.

in real terms I would say a lot less between em than people suggest.

as a pio kuro series owner very happy with my epson 9000 :)


+1 well said Al.

It really is horses for courses . The 9000 suits my viewing environment to a Tee. If you have a bat cave yes the x30 blacks are better but only slightly according to Art Feierman.
The black level of the Epson is amazing given its light output. I personally think that this is the difference between the black levels of the JVC v Epson.

Art makes good points re choice between the two when he recently reviewed the JVC.
I would be the last person on earth to knock JVC projectors and believe selection is truly tailored to your viewing environment.
Cost of consumables also needs to be considered. Epson lamps are reasonably priced. Warranty is the big winner for the Epson's as well.

Edited by Crist, 18 February 2012 - 10:20 AM.


#5 Azz123

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Posted 18 February 2012 - 09:20 AM

Had a retailer advise that the Epson's Bulb cost is extremely cheap in comparison to competition and they warrant by year since purchase, not bulb life if that's a positive.

#6 ken s

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Posted 18 February 2012 - 09:51 AM

Hi , l'm thinking of getting the Epson 9000 too , atm l have a dedicated dark ht room and run a 100" 1.3 screen..........will the 9000 be too bright and contrast suffer on this ?
Current pj mounted @ 3.7m from the screen on an LP Morgan telescopic mount.......... l'm hoping the position and mount will be ok ( don't really want to shift if l can get away with it )
Glad to hear you like yours Al :) l got offered a ex demo jvc dla250 with 2000hrs on the other day for $1880 with full warranty , and was fairly keen but figured the epson should be better again ......what do you think?
.l'm not rich and saving the price difference would be nice but l presume the jvc will need a new globe soon and does'nt do 3d obviosly ( not greatly concerned)

Cheers Ken

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Posted 18 February 2012 - 09:56 AM

+1 well said Al.

It really is horses for courses . The 9000 suits my viewing environment to a Tee. If you have a bat cave yes the x30 blacks are better but only slightly according to Art Feierman.

Art makes good points re choice between the two when he recently reviewed the JVC.
I would be the last person on earth to knock JVC projectors and believe selection is truly tailored to your viewing environment.
Cost of consumables also needs to be considered. Epson lamps are reasonably priced. Warranty is the big winner for the Epson's as well.


definitely an environment thing, those with dedicated full light controlled bat cave rooms likely pick the jvc,

the POP the epson has to its picture with its light output I like as well especially as a plasma owner I like the vibrancy to the picture for the similar reasons people dlps for their pop.

below is a pic of just fta tv in ambient lighting in the room which gives some indication the benefit the light canon output can bring with some ambient light in the room,

IMG_3442.jpg

similarly this is very helpfull where block out during the day maybe less than ideal as well :) and say watching sport etc with friends say in what is not complete darkness blockout situation in day time :)

Had a retailer advise that the Epson's Bulb cost is extremely cheap in comparison to competition and they warrant by year since purchase, not bulb life if that's a positive.


yes the warranty on the epson is not to be understated, the 3 years including bulb is a huge benefit as with the extra 6 months manufacturer warranty they give you just for registering the unit. projectors are quite fragile things and manufacturer warranty you cant beat for some peace of mind !

#8 MRCRIST

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Posted 18 February 2012 - 10:25 AM

Hi , l'm thinking of getting the Epson 9000 too , atm l have a dedicated dark ht room and run a 100" 1.3 screen..........will the 9000 be too bright and contrast suffer on this ?
Current pj mounted @ 3.7m from the screen on an LP Morgan telescopic mount.......... l'm hoping the position and mount will be ok ( don't really want to shift if l can get away with it )
Glad to hear you like yours Al :) l got offered a ex demo jvc dla250 with 2000hrs on the other day for $1880 with full warranty , and was fairly keen but figured the epson should be better again ......what do you think?
.l'm not rich and saving the price difference would be nice but l presume the jvc will need a new globe soon and does'nt do 3d obviosly ( not greatly concerned)

Cheers Ken



As Al said and I left out it is the lumens that gives the Epson a plasma TV like pop. A 1.3 gain screen in a batcave will make it very bright but to make it unwatchable I doubt. if you can arrange an in home demo with the retailler or someone who owns one would be of benefit. Like everything else what is too bright for one person may be just right for another.

Edited by Crist, 18 February 2012 - 10:26 AM.


#9 Highjinx

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Posted 18 February 2012 - 10:58 AM

I had an Epson TW200(DI CR 50k:1, Native 6k:1) nice projector had a cinema black mode where the colour and brightness were suited to my screen also has a dynamic mode, very bright but heave green push. If using the DI, when dark scenes com on, the bright bits in the dark scene get compressed.


With my current projector JVC HD750, in bright scnes the difference is not so different to the Epson, but in dark scenes the difference is remarkable, the airport scene in Casino Royal was a revelation, where the black is black and the lights are bright, with the Epson, the blacks were not as black and the lights were not as bright as with the JVC.

One thing to keep in mind is the affect the bright bits in a dark scene has on our on eyes irises, they close down, making black levels appear lower. With the Epson due to the brightness compression, the brights did not appear as bright thus the eyes irises would not close as much as with the JVC, thus the less deeper black levels of the Epson didn't get the benefit of the eyes iris action, blacks were a milky grey.

I am biased, I'm not a fan of the DI, the eyes DI is sufficient, if the native CR of a projector is high. But deep black level is only important in low APL scenes........so horses for....

#10 ken s

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Posted 18 February 2012 - 12:07 PM

Thanks for the commenets guys , atm l dont have a dealer here with the epson, l could find one in Melbourne to demo l guess , l'd just have to find one setup in a similar dark enviroment and size screen.
l've expressed intrest in the group buy here today , so l'll see what comes about with that price wise etc

The used JVC is at a local dealer , looks quite good too and would most likely suit the batcave enviroment a bit better......just l was told by a couple od salesmen over the phone yesterday the 9000 was a better projector again .....but they are salesmen hey :)


( nice pj btw highjinx :) )

Edited by ken s, 18 February 2012 - 12:18 PM.


#11 :)

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Posted 18 February 2012 - 12:14 PM

As Al said and I left out it is the lumens that gives the Epson a plasma TV like pop. A 1.3 gain screen in a batcave will make it very bright but to make it unwatchable I doubt. if you can arrange an in home demo with the retailler or someone who owns one would be of benefit. Like everything else what is too bright for one person may be just right for another.


yes the pop is definitely a big like for me ! whether too bright I guess something to check out. the epson has various modes and power levels for adjusment. one plus for the jvc is can play with the adjustable iris to control light output as well

I had an Epson TW200(DI CR 50k:1, Native 6k:1) nice projector had a cinema black mode where the colour and brightness were suited to my screen also has a dynamic mode, very bright but heave green push. If using the DI, when dark scenes com on, the bright bits in the dark scene get compressed.


With my current projector JVC HD750, in bright scnes the difference is not so different to the Epson, but in dark scenes the difference is remarkable, the airport scene in Casino Royal was a revelation, where the black is black and the lights are bright, with the Epson, the blacks were not as black and the lights were not as bright as with the JVC.

One thing to keep in mind is the affect the bright bits in a dark scene has on our on eyes irises, they close down, making black levels appear lower. With the Epson due to the brightness compression, the brights did not appear as bright thus the eyes irises would not close as much as with the JVC, thus the less deeper black levels of the Epson didn't get the benefit of the eyes iris action, blacks were a milky grey.

I am biased, I'm not a fan of the DI, the eyes DI is sufficient, if the native CR of a projector is high. But deep black level is only important in low APL scenes........so horses for....


hj some good observations, but I would be very carefull drawing any bows with older epsons like the tw200 vs current gen like the 9000. pjs come a long long way. I too up until last year would never even consider an lcd till saw the last gen and purchased the 5500 wow. and then the 9000 is just a step up from that as well.

Hi , l'm thinking of getting the Epson 9000 too , atm l have a dedicated dark ht room and run a 100" 1.3 screen..........will the 9000 be too bright and contrast suffer on this ?
Current pj mounted @ 3.7m from the screen on an LP Morgan telescopic mount.......... l'm hoping the position and mount will be ok ( don't really want to shift if l can get away with it )
Glad to hear you like yours Al :) l got offered a ex demo jvc dla250 with 2000hrs on the other day for $1880 with full warranty , and was fairly keen but figured the epson should be better again ......what do you think?
.l'm not rich and saving the price difference would be nice but l presume the jvc will need a new globe soon and does'nt do 3d obviosly ( not greatly concerned)

Cheers Ken


ken a good post from crist in response, myself I'd be wary of a pj with that sort of hours on it. not just the globe but also just age effects. a low hour x3 would be better shot vs the epson I'd say. as suggested by crist if can get a retailer to let you borrow overnight I'd say soon have your answer one way or the other :)

re positioning check the link on the epson site goes their calculator pretty comprehensive as to how will fit in.
http://www.epson.com.../eh-tw9000w.asp

#12 ken s

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Posted 18 February 2012 - 12:32 PM

Hi Al , yes a new projector appeals to me more and from all accounts the 9000 in eco etc might suit the bill .....l'm coming from a Sony HS60 ( which has been bulletproof, just dimmish )
Used JVC's are hard to come by when your after one lol , but i'm not in a great rush ( so long as it's next week ! :) )

Seriously , the old Sony will suffice until need be, just keen to upgrade soon to 1080p ...the other good thing with the 9000 is the wireless HDMI , as my wall that the original HDMI runs up is located under a second story , so impossible to access for a straight pull up and l'd hate to try and pull though a new cable and lose it halfway ( l know the holes are'nt very big as l ran it 6 years ago )

The 9000 looking pretty good atm ( unless a nice higher end JVC comes about at the right price :) )

Cheers Ken

#13 ken s

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Posted 18 February 2012 - 01:00 PM

Hi Al , yes a new projector appeals to me more and from all accounts the 9000 in eco etc might suit the bill .....l'm coming from a Sony HS60 ( which has been bulletproof, just dimmish )
Used JVC's are hard to come by when your after one lol , but i'm not in a great rush ( so long as it's next week ! :) )

Seriously , the old Sony will suffice until need be, just keen to upgrade soon to 1080p ...the other good thing with the 9000 is the wireless HDMI , as my wall that the original HDMI runs up is located under a second story , so impossible to access for a straight pull up and l'd hate to try and pull though a new cable and lose it halfway ( l know the holes are'nt very big as l ran it 6 years ago )

The 9000 looking pretty good atm ( unless a nice higher end JVC comes about at the right price :) )

Cheers Ken

#14 Highjinx

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Posted 18 February 2012 - 02:22 PM

hj some good observations, but I would be very carefull drawing any bows with older epsons like the tw200 vs current gen like the 9000. pjs come a long long way. I too up until last year would never even consider an lcd till saw the last gen and purchased the 5500 wow. and then the 9000 is just a step up from that as well.




You are correct Al, projectors are evolving in leaps and bounds, yikes! the TW2000 was 4years ago!

BTW what is the native CR on the 9000, I bet some of you are not running the DI?

#15 MRCRIST

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Posted 18 February 2012 - 04:57 PM

You are correct Al, projectors are evolving in leaps and bounds, yikes! the TW2000 was 4years ago!

BTW what is the native CR on the 9000, I bet some of you are not running the DI?


you only have to read Joerod's review of the new 4k Sony PJ and ponder where things will be in a few years.

see here http://www.joerodhom....com/about.html

Edited by Crist, 18 February 2012 - 04:58 PM.


#16 mmu16

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Posted 18 February 2012 - 05:53 PM

Has anyone noticed image drag on the outer edges of fast moving images on the epson? I have demo'd 2 so far and on large screens they both displayed the same issue.

#17 bbar

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Posted 18 February 2012 - 07:01 PM

Just thought of one more difference which I find important; but others may not - The JVC has motorised Iris so one can adjust brightness to desired level and if you are like me and Mark Techer then one sets and to desired level and then adjusts as the lamp dims to ensure consistency. Mark and I are fans of the THX and SMPTE recommendations of 12-16FL. I set mine at 14 - 15.

Could not find how to do on Epson. Can do in service menu in BenQ6000 as Mark Techer showed me how.

#18 Owen

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Posted 18 February 2012 - 07:26 PM

If the room is not ideal with white ceiling, light coloured walls, floor, furnishings or any ambient light the screen makes a MASSIVE difference to performance. Remember a normal white screen can never look darker than with the projector switched off and light reflections from the light coloured room dramatically degrade image contrast in bright scenes. In such an environment a high tech screen like the Supernova makes much more difference to image contrast then a bright projector ever could.

The X30 JVC has up to 10 times greater native contrast than the Epson, that makes a big difference in dark scenes and in a dark environment the JVC is plenty bright. For use in ambient light add a high gain Supernova screen and you get a combination of good blacks and bright whites that is not attainable any other way as far as I know.

Follow this link to the the Screen Innovations site and watch the videos you will be presented with. Number 5 is particularly interesting as it shows how much difference the Black Diamond screen (similar to the DNP Supernova) makes in a typical non black painted viewing environment, even with lights out. The improvident over a conventional white screen is startling.

http://www.screeninnovations.com/


Here is a direct link to the most useful video.
Projector used is a JVC HD350 with lamp on low power, not a light cannon.

http://www.youtube.c...&v=8D1Vcvxy68I#!

Edited by Owen, 19 February 2012 - 07:40 AM.


#19 jliang70

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Posted 19 February 2012 - 02:07 AM

Regarding out of box performance of JVC and epson. I think the default setting like Cinema mode in JVC is fairly accurate and it require very little adjustment. With regard to Epson you can get 3.5 years of warranty on the product but not on the bulb you will need to read the fine print on their warranty and on their previous range Epson cover the lamp for a year or 750 hours whichever come the eraliest.

#20 Owen

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Posted 19 February 2012 - 06:30 AM

That is my experience with the X3, Standard mode with the 6400k preset is very close out of the box, after calibration at 60 hours I could hardly see any difference.
Did another calibration at about 200 hours, a couple of clicks of adjustment where required but it was not enough to be visible.

Edited by Owen, 19 February 2012 - 06:33 AM.


#21 jmone

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Posted 19 February 2012 - 06:42 AM

Ugg I get it now (another reason I like my light emmiting panel). So what is the cost of these 100" screens in Oz and is their a prefered retailer? Owen, I know you are a fan of the X30 but what would the combination of these sort of screen be like withthe Epson (for my current home situation the wireless HDMI is a big plus). The other option is I could add a HDMI Wireless Bridge to the X30..

Edited by jmone, 19 February 2012 - 07:27 AM.


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Posted 19 February 2012 - 07:27 AM

Regarding out of box performance of JVC and epson. I think the default setting like Cinema mode in JVC is fairly accurate and it require very little adjustment. With regard to Epson you can get 3.5 years of warranty on the product but not on the bulb you will need to read the fine print on their warranty and on their previous range Epson cover the lamp for a year or 750 hours whichever come the eraliest.


not correct on the warranty. I actually owned the previous flagship epson 5500 and current 9000. the warranty you are getting muddled in your head. Its something I not only confirmed with epson but also retailer and service centre not only for the previous model but also the current. and the fine print is actually quite clear, but I checked anyway.

http://www.epson.com...jector_3Y3Y.asp

the projector without lamp is warranted for 3 years. the lamp supplied with the projector is warranted for 3 years. if you buy a lamp separate to the projector it is warranted to 12 months or 750 hours which ever comes first.

re the x30 if I bought one, I would be getting it calibrated. re the x3 before out of box needed calibration to my eyes.. And many do calibrate and also run a external scaler to have the isf capability to fully calibrate it. :) its also the reason some bought the x7 and looking at the x70 for full ISF calibration the x30 doesnt have,

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Posted 19 February 2012 - 07:54 AM

Ugg I get it now (another reason I like my light emmiting panel). So what is the cost of these 100" screens in Oz and is their a prefered retailer? Owen, I know you are a fan of the X30 but what would the combination of these sort of screen be like withthe Epson (for my current home situation the wireless HDMI is a big plus). The other option is I could add a HDMI Wireless Bridge to the X30..


in my opinion, check out for your own eyes. while these ambient light rejecting screens do exist. like their benefits they also do have draw backs. Apart from being quite expensive vs conventional screens. check out for your self to decide :)

re wireless hdmi, dvdo provide the same tech as the epson as add on its a $399 item, not sure if available as yet in australia
http://store.spectra...ion-system.html

#24 MRCRIST

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Posted 19 February 2012 - 08:21 AM

I was ready to pull the trigger on one of these but didn't beause they don't perform as demonstrated if most of your ambient light is coming from the sides of the screen rather from the front. It was pointed out that the demos with the fluoros on were with the lights turned on at the front of the screen. Lights were turned off on the left and right side of the screen.To add they are not cheap.


in my opinion, check out for your own eyes. while these ambient light rejecting screens do exist. like their benefits they also do have draw backs. Apart from being quite expensive vs conventional screens. check out for your self to decide :)

re wireless hdmi, dvdo provide the same tech as the epson as add on its a $399 item, not sure if available as yet in australia
http://store.spectra...ion-system.html



#25 Owen

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Posted 19 February 2012 - 08:36 AM

Ugg I get it now (another reason I like my light emmiting panel). So what is the cost of these 100" screens in Oz and is their a prefered retailer? Owen, I know you are a fan of the X30 but what would the combination of these sort of screen be like withthe Epson (for my current home situation the wireless HDMI is a big plus). The other option is I could add a HDMI Wireless Bridge to the X30..


The Black Diamond and Supernova screens work great with any projector and for a non dark viewing environment they are absolutely vital for a good image. Any white of gray screen is very poor in comparison.
The Epson will work better in a non dark environmnet than the JVC, but when its dark the JVC is king. The JVC's are the only digital front projectors that are up with the Kuro for contrast and black level is actually a lot lower than a Kuro in dark scenes.

I dont have an exact price for the screens but some where around $3k for a fixed, more for a roll up.

The Supernova is sold by Screen Technics, if you are interested in one we should get together with a group buy.

Edited by Owen, 19 February 2012 - 04:09 PM.